"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Dancelittleewok]

Federal headship or representation according to Rom 5 and 1 Cor 15:

1st Adam = All humanity including Mary, but not Christ

2nd Adam = New humanity only

What do you mean by the whole body? Who’s the whole body in your view, all of humanity?

Yes, all of humanity and each of these humans are given the choice to choose grace or not in the course of their lifetimes hence the claim that I believe in universalism is false. All of humanity isn’t the Body of Christ but Christ certainly died for them. See my explanation for the analogy I made.

I’d argue that Jesus’ humanity isn’t new–it’s old. If you remember in the Garden, Adam and Eve were created without sin but freely chose it. Jesus is humanity is how you were originally created–we had no original sin. Post-Fall, we had a tendency towards evil but still had the image of God and we’re still capable of making good or bad choices.

Do you disagree that Adam was the original representative for humanity?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Ah, but Adam we Catholics don’t believe in a salvation based our own personal righteousness. Salvation is a gift for all but we must choose it everyday. If I am tempted, I know I can call upon Jesus to help me, etc.

This brings me to another contradiction is Calvinism, which I referenced in the old thread.
How can one be saved by not saved inwardly at the same? How come free will only works with the original Adam and when you are in the sanctification mode?

LOL… are you saying you are not in the transformation mode of being made into the image of Christ. Nobody arrives in this life. We are all sinners in process. If your assurance is based on your actual progress in this life, then there is really no assurance in the promises of God, and when you make alittle progress, you will boast in your flesh in your progress, falling back two steps in the other direction.

 

[zerinus]

CARM is hardly “congenial” at least for us Catholics and I imagine for Mormons as well.

I had addressed that post to Adam. For him I am sure it would be.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

LOL… are you saying you are not in the transformation mode of being made into the image of Christ. Nobody arrives in this life.

Did I say that? You’ve acknowledged that Catholics believe that salvation is an ongoing process. Care to address the points I made?

 

[guanophore]

I am not anti-body, for we are saved into a corporate body. However, the corporate body is not defined by the Catholic Church.

No, the Body is defined by Christ, who said “I will build MY Church”. It is this Church that is the “fullness of all in all”, and through which He manifests Himself for the world.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by zerinus
Question for you Adam. Do you post on CARM as well? That is a good place for you to post. You will meet a lot of like-minded folks down there. I am sure you will find that a much more congenial place to post than here.

No, I’ve never been on that site. I can only particpate on one site at a time.

 

[guanophore]

Really, are you saying that Muslims are part of the remnant chosen by grace?

No. Are you saying a Muslim cannot be one of the remnant chosen by grace? Have you put some kind of limit on where God is allowed to go to choose His remnant?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

LOL… are you saying you are not in the transformation mode of being made into the image of Christ. Nobody arrives in this life. We are all sinners in process. If your assurance is based on your actual progress in this life, then there is really no assurance in the promises of God, and when you make alittle progress, you will boast in your flesh in your progress, falling back two steps in the other direction.

Thanks for the putting words in my mouth. Salvation is a free gift from God. Man has a choice to accept it or not. See my previous posts.

 

[guanophore]

See Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15. The Catholic Church does not believe in universalism, nor do I.

Right, so how do you explain that Paul did such a poor job of making comparison? Why did he imply that Jesus undid what Adam did, Adam bringing all of humanity into death, but Jesus really did not bring all of humanity into life?

Shouldn’t Paul have used Noah as an example instead? If Jesus died only for the remnant?

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, the Body is defined by Christ, who said “I will build MY Church”. It is this Church that is the “fullness of all in all”, and through which He manifests Himself for the world.

You can’t make circular arguments because our definition of the church is mutually exclusive of each other. The body of Christ includes all who have been united to Christ by faith through the Spirit. The remnant chosen by grace goes way beyond the Catholic walls, and you know that’s true. However, the remnant does not extend to those who do not believe in the biblical Christ and His glorious gospel. The remnant in the Mormon church, Muslim Church, Judaism, Hinduism, and other non-Christian religions will hear the true gospel proclaimed and respond by receiving it… thus leaving their old religions. Christ has built His Church on the profession of Peter the little rock.

 

[guanophore]

Guan is the one who brought up the faithful Muslim man. It sounded very Pelagius to me, but I could be wrong.

You have already posted the quote from the council of Orange, making a statement with which you claim to agree.

No one comes to God except by grace, through faith. I don’t understand why you have so much trouble applying that principle in this context. Do you have so much prejudice against muslims that you don’t believe God can save them by grace, through faith?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

You have already posted the quote from the council of Orange, making a statement with which you claim to agree.

No one comes to God except by grace, through faith. I don’t understand why you have so much trouble applying that principle in this context. Do you have so much prejudice against muslims that you don’t believe God can save them by grace, through faith?

Me thinks Adam only believes a select number from “historic Christianity” are apart of the elect.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You have already posted the quote from the council of Orange, making a statement with which you claim to agree.

No one comes to God except by grace, through faith. I don’t understand why you have so much trouble applying that principle in this context. Do you have so much prejudice against muslims that you don’t believe God can save them by grace, through faith?

Please see my post above about the true church of God. There are many ex-Muslims who now believe in the true living Christ. However, those ex-Muslims are simply Christians. I’ve actually met quite a few converts on-line! What do you call a believing Jew? The answer is Christian.

 

[zerinus]

Question for you Adam. Do you post on CARM as well? That is a good place for you to post. You will meet a lot of like-minded folks down there. I am sure you will find that a much more congenial place to post than here.

I will qualify that. If you go to CARM, you will meet many like-minded folks, and there is a strong likelihood that you will find it a much more congenial place that here. But on the other hand, there is also a remote possibility that it might turn you off Calvinism altogether! LOL!

 

[ryanoneil]

As you know, what you consider ongoing justfication, Protestants call that portion of salvation as sanctification. Do you think a Catholic is justifed, then loses his justification and returns to the kingdom of darkness, and later regains his lost justification and becomes united to Christ again? Is this the Catholic pattern of salvation?

I wouldn’t say it is “the” pattern in the strict sense, but the answer is yes. People can be justified, lose it, and regain it.

Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Rom 11:19-24)

 

[2nd_Adam]

I will qualify that. If you go to CARM, you will meet many like-minded folks, and there is a strong likelihood that you will find it a much more congenial place that here. But on the other hand, there is also a remote possibility that it might turn you off Calvinism altogether! LOL!

I’m sure Mormons don’t do very well on Arminain or Calvinist Protestant forum sites.

 

[guanophore]

I think the book of Galatians would help you make the proper distinction between Issac and Ishmael. So, are you saying Muslims can possibly be saved, even though they reject the heart of Christianity that Jesus was crucified for our sins?

NO, but most Muslims have never heard the gospel. They get a very misrepresented form of Christianity.

I was not suggesting that the Ishmaelites are under a covenant of salvation like the Jews. No one of any race, creed, or color is excluded from salvation based upon where they were born, or even their lack of knowledge about God. God can save whoever He wants, however He likes.

Do you think that Muslims cannot be part of the remnant because they are Muslim?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I wouldn’t say it is “the” pattern in the strict sense, but the answer is yes. People can be justified, lose it, and regain it.

Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Rom 11:19-24)

Okay Ryan… that is a tremendous post. I have to say that you and Tweetymom are my favorite Catholic siblings for different reasons! Let’s continue with this thought, for it is why we are discussing the sufficiency of Christ and sufficiency of grace. The Christian life is not one of moving from the kingdom of darkness, to the kingdom of light, and back to the kingdom of darkness and back to the kingdom of light. We are permanenly adopted into the family of God through our Elder Brother (Jesus Christ), or adoption through propitiation.

http://www.nloma.org/Portals/0/sunset_cross.jpg

 

[guanophore]

I’m completely lost with your question. Christ came to save His sheep, those whom the Father gave Him to save. Do you see the word of redeemed to be different than the word saved?

Scripture says He gave His life for the whole world. He paid for the sins of all. Not everyone gets into the bag and goes home with Him.

His grace is sufficient for all the sins of all the men for all time. Not everyone takes advantage of that sufficiency.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Scripture says He gave His life for the whole world. He paid for the sins of all. Not everyone gets into the bag and goes home with Him.

His grace is sufficient for all the sins of all the men for all time. Not everyone takes advantage of that sufficiency.

I can agree with that with small modifications. Do you agree with me that God’s grace which was merited by Christ is sufficient to save and redeem the fallen Angels?