"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Dancelittleewok]

I wouldn’t say it is “the” pattern in the strict sense, but the answer is yes. People can be justified, lose it, and regain it.

Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Rom 11:19-24)

Ryan, Adam believes that unbelief is the only mortal sin. I assume from what you’ve posted, probably affirms that you believe all that and since you’ve acknowledged the salvation isn’t assured, he’s gonna try to evangelize you right now.

 

[guanophore]

You lost me too. Are you saying that proclaiming the Catholic Church is different than proclaiming Jesus Christ. The Epistles were written to churches and Christians. The Apostles proclaimed Christ and Him crucified to Christians! I’m not sure your view of CA is in line with this posted CAF Statement of Purpose.

In the context of my dialogue on CAF, I am not here to evangelize (proclaim Christ to the unbelieving). I am here to give Catholic Answers to those who are seeking them. I am here to discuss the differences between Catholic theology and Protestant. These are the discussions I seek out, and enjoy the most.

I suppose if the mods find a problem with my view of CA, they can stop taking my donations to support the ministry, and can ban me from membership.

Do you think providing Catholic answers is not part of teh posted CAF statement of purpose?

When was Cornelius saved?

Why didn’t Paul use Noah as an foreshadowing of Christ, instead of Adam?

Why can’t one of the Elect be from a Muslim background?

 

[guanophore]

Historic Christianity is not universalism. Are we on the same page yet?

NO.

 The answer to your questions are found in Rom 5 and 1 Cor 15. Not all of humanity will be part of the 2nd Adam or new Adam.  Many die as individuals united to the 1st Adam, and will continue to be part of the old creation.

Right, so why use Adam as a forshadow? Jesus is more like a 2nd Noah, since He only came to save the small remnant.

 

[izoid]

Originally Posted by ryanoneil
I wouldn’t say it is “the” pattern in the strict sense, but the answer is yes. People can be justified, lose it, and regain it.

Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Rom 11:19-24)

Okay Ryan… that is a tremendous post. I have to say that you and Tweetymom are my favorite Catholic siblings for different reasons! Let’s continue with this thought, for it is why we are discussing the sufficiency of Christ and sufficiency of grace. The Christian life is not one of moving from the kingdom of darkness, to the kingdom of light, and back to the kingdom of darkness and back to the kingdom of light. We are permanenly adopted into the family of God through our Elder Brother (Jesus Christ), or adoption through propitiation.

http://www.nloma.org/Portals/0/sunset_cross.jpg

Do you agree with Ryan on this post?

 

[zerinus]

I’m sure Mormons don’t do very well on Arminain or Calvinist Protestant forum sites.

I am not sure what you mean by “do very well”. If you mean that they can’t hold their ground, that is not true. Mormons can hold their ground whatever site they go to.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I can agree with that with small modifications. Do you agree with me that God’s grace which was merited by Christ is sufficient to save and redeem the fallen Angels?

Angels aren’t under the constraints of time like we are but not eternal like God. God gave them individually a choice to choose God or not because there’s no procreating with angels seeing as they are without bodies, they have no species. Christ, whom was the representative of humanity when He died upon the Cross, couldn’t work due to existential differences. The sufficiency question here isn’t for angels but for humanity.

 

[2nd_Adam]

NO, but most Muslims have never heard the gospel. They get a very misrepresented form of Christianity.

I was not suggesting that the Ishmaelites are under a covenant of salvation like the Jews. No one of any race, creed, or color is excluded from salvation based upon where they were born, or even their lack of knowledge about God. God can save whoever He wants, however He likes.

Do you think that Muslims cannot be part of the remnant because they are Muslim?

I believe the gospel will be preached to All God’s elect, and in His timing, the Elect will receive the truth of the gospel. We have no idea if someone is an elect until you proclaim the gospel to that person. And even if that person rejects the truth, it does not mean later in life that he won’t receive it. I think you are emtering dangerous grounds to give people hope apart from faith in Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the gospel. You cannot change the great good news of God as accountable bad news, because all are condemned prior to hearing the gospel. Christ came to save and rescue His people from their sins. No, I do not believe the Islamic Religion saves sinners. They don’t even believe that Christ was crucified for their sins. If Muslims are saved through Islam, who will pay for their sins? I think your posting is also unbliblical and you seem to make the death of Christ to be unecessary since you are creating alternative ways to save sinners.

 

[izoid]

I believe the gospel will be preached to All God’s elect, and in His timing, the Elect will receive the truth of the gospel. We have no idea if someone is an elect until you proclaim the gospel to that person. And even if that person rejects the truth, it does not mean later in life that he won’t receive it. I think you are emtering dangerous grounds to give people hope apart from faith in Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the gospel. You cannot change the great good news of God as accountable bad news, because all are condemned prior to hearing the gospel. Christ came to save and rescues His people from their sins. No, I do not believe the Islamic Religion saves sinners. They don’t even believe that Christ was crucified for their sins. If Muslims are saved through Islam, who will pay for their sins?

Since we are discussing the sufficiency of Grace I would like to ask if Gods grace is sufficient for those that are not elect? If it is, what is it sufficient for?

 

[izoid]

I believe the gospel will be preached to All God’s elect, and in His timing, the Elect will receive the truth of the gospel. We have no idea if someone is an elect until you proclaim the gospel to that person. And even if that person rejects the truth, it does not mean later in life that he won’t receive it. I think you are emtering dangerous grounds to give people hope apart from faith in Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the gospel. You cannot change the great good news of God as accountable bad news, because all are condemned prior to hearing the gospel. Christ came to save and rescue His people from their sins. B]No, I do not believe the Islamic Religion saves sinners. They don’t even believe that Christ was crucified for their sins. If Muslims are saved through Islam, who will pay for their sins? I think your posting is also unbliblical and you seem to make the death of Christ to be unecessary since you are creating alternative ways to save sinners.

See Adam, you and I agree on certain things…the bolded text above.

However, you knew there was a however, I think you are coming to conclusion about what Guan is saying that simply aren’t there. I do not see him claiming that salvation comes from anyone, or anything, apart from Christ.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I believe the gospel will be preached to All God’s elect, and in His timing, the Elect will receive the truth of the gospel. We have no idea if someone is an elect until you proclaim the gospel to that person. And even if that person rejects the truth, it does not mean later in life that he won’t receive it. I think you are emtering dangerous grounds to give people hope apart from faith in Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the gospel. You cannot change the great good news of God as accountable bad news, because all are condemned prior to hearing the gospel. Christ came to save and rescue His people from their sins. No, I do not believe the Islamic Religion saves sinners. They don’t even believe that Christ was crucified for their sins. If Muslims are saved through Islam, who will pay for their sins? I think your posting is also unbliblical and you seem to make the death of Christ to be unecessary since you are creating alternative ways to save sinners.

Guan didn’t say Islam saves sinners. He is asking if God (not the religion) will save a Muslim and in doing so, is that Muslim apart of the elect?

Taking another break. I’ll be thinking of you all as I pray the Rosary. Have a good night if I don’t post until much later!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Guan didn’t say Islam saves sinners. He is asking if God (not the religion) will save a Muslim and in doing so, is that Muslim apart of the elect?

Taking another break. I’ll be thinking of you all as I pray the Rosary. Have a good night if I don’t post until much later!

I think God saves Christians and not Muslims. I believe a Muslim is someone who adheres to the Islamic Religion. Without the crucified Christ for their sins, there is no salvation. The Jew who believes in the Christ in the gospel and the Muslim who believes in the Christ in the gospel are no longer Jews or Muslims. They are now Christians. God only saves those who are in Christ. There is no other way to be saved from your sins. I encourage you to go to an all religion website and you will find ex-Muslims who are now Christians testifying to what I have posted.

 

[2nd_Adam]

In the context of my dialogue on CAF, I am not here to evangelize (proclaim Christ to the unbelieving). I am here to give Catholic Answers to those who are seeking them. I am here to discuss the differences between Catholic theology and Protestant. These are the discussions I seek out, and enjoy the most.

I suppose if the mods find a problem with my view of CA, they can stop taking my donations to support the ministry, and can ban me from membership.

Do you think providing Catholic answers is not part of teh posted CAF statement of purpose?

When was Cornelius saved?

Why didn’t Paul use Noah as an foreshadowing of Christ, instead of Adam?

Why can’t one of the Elect be from a Muslim background?

Christians are called to proclaim Christ to themselves daily, and to proclaim Christ to their fellow Christians. The gospel is for everyday living for the Christian. It is much more than simply entrance into the kingdom of God. We are to preach the gospel to ourselves each and every day. The Apostles preached Christ and Him crucified to the church! If you are not preaching the gospel to yourselves daily, then how can you walk by faith?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Rom 1;16-17

1 Corinthians 15

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

 

[PRmerger]

I did not include others that did not specifically mention salvation. We are called to repentence (I mentioned that) and be baptized. However without faith and belief in Christ, those things would not happen.

You didn’t mention [BIBLEDRB]1 Pet 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]

That has to do with salvation, does it not?

Originally Posted by shawn38
Repentence and Belief is sufficient enough

Clearly, that doctrine contradicts Scripture, Shawn.

 

[coracobb]

In regard to the discussion about faith vs works. The Bible is clear on the subject.

James 2:14-20 King James Revised Standard Version Scofield Reference Bible

14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (see Rom 1:16-17)

15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute if daily food.

16: And one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit?

17: Even so faith, if hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18: Yea, a man may say thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

19: Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I read the above verses in the Douay-Rheims just to make sure the King James and Douay are the same. They are identical except in the way questions are asked. The Douay has more modern english than the King James.

Romans 1:16-17

16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The Scofield Reference Bible has detailed notes regarding salvation. I won’t copy that but if you are interested I believe you can find an online Scofield Reference Bible if you don’t have one. I like to use several different bibles to study with. I hope this answeres some questions.

Cora

 

[2nd_Adam]

In regard to the discussion about faith vs works. The Bible is clear on the subject.

James 2:14-20 King James Revised Standard Version Scofield Reference Bible

14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (see Rom 1:16-17)

15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute if daily food.

16: And one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit?

17: Even so faith, if hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18: Yea, a man may say thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

19: Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I read the above verses in the Douay-Rheims just to make sure the King James and Douay are the same. They are identical except in the way questions are asked. The Douay has more modern english than the King James.

Romans 1:16-17

16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The Scofield Reference Bible has detailed notes regarding salvation. I won’t copy that but if you are interested I believe you can find an online Scofield Reference Bible if you don’t have one. I like to use several different bibles to study with. I hope this answeres some questions.

Cora

Bible notes are not inspired or God-breathed. Do you agree that we are justified by faith?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You didn’t mention [BIBLEDRB]1 Pet 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]

That has to do with salvation, does it not?

Clearly, that doctrine contradicts Scripture, Shawn.

What must I do to be saved? That is the question with a biblical answer according to the Apostles.

 

[Cr8ton]

You didn’t mention [BIBLEDRB]1 Pet 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]

That has to do with salvation, does it not?

Clearly, that doctrine contradicts Scripture, Shawn.

How are you so sure that baptism is referring to the outward symbol as opposed to the baptismal regeneration of the Holy Spirit? Because that is in fact what the outward symbol is, it is a symbol.

Many who were baptized, and constantly attended the ordinances, have remained without Christ, died in their sins, and are now past recovery.

We shouldn’t rest until we are cleansed by the Spirit of Christ and the blood of Christ. His resurrection from the dead is how we are assured of purifying and peace.

 

[coracobb]

Bible notes are not inspired or God-breathed. Do you agree that we are justified by faith?

Absolutey, we are justified by faith. And you are correct in that foot notes are not the inspired word of God but a good study Bible never hurt any one while trying understand.

Would you agree with that?

I like the Navarre Bible and use the NAB study Bible regularly. I am not a learned Bible Scholar therefore I don’t plan to try to interpret the scriptures on my own. I have found also that the Catechism directly answeres most any question if one is willing to read it, since it gets quite long at times.

God Bless You Adam

Cora

 

[PRmerger]

How are you so sure that baptism is referring to the outward symbol as opposed to the baptismal regeneration of the Holy Spirit? Because that is in fact what the outward symbol is, it is a symbol.

As with most Catholic answers: it’s not either/or. It’s both/and!

Many who were baptized, and constantly attended the ordinances, have remained without Christ, died in their sins, and are now past recovery.

Indeed. Baptism saves you, in addition to all the other things Scripture says saves you. Like eating His Flesh and drinking His blood.

We shouldn’t rest until we are cleansed by the Spirit of Christ and the blood of Christ. His resurrection from the dead is how we are assured of purifying and peace.

Amen!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Absolutey, we are justified by faith. And you are correct in that foot notes are not the inspired word of God but a good study Bible never hurt any one while trying understand.

Would you agree with that?

I like the Navarre Bible and use the NAB study Bible regularly. I am not a learned Bible Scholar therefore I don’t plan to try to interpret the scriptures on my own. I have found also that the Catechism directly answeres most any question if one is willing to read it, since it gets quite long at times.

God Bless You Adam

Cora

Study Bibles wiil have notes according to the particular kind of theology that it promotes. Would you use the Mormon KJV Bible with Joseph Smith notes? I don’t think you would want the New Geneva Study Bible, or Reformed Study Bible would you, unless you want to be a Catholic Calvinist. I’m glad that we are in agreement that we are justified by faith.