"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Timothy_Piper]

Not a single Catholic person on this thread has ever claimed to be perfect when she’s correcting or admonishing you, tweety.

Why must every correction be taken so personally?

We’ve all been at family gatherings when, seemingly, an interesting discussion is being had, and suddenly (usually it’s a female, I must say) jumps up and exclaims, *“Well, since you’re all perfect and think it’s okay to insult me I’ll just take my casserole and leave, thank you very much!” * Everyone else is left mystified by the perceived insult…but, then, the conversation happily continues, but, sadly, next time this family member appears conversation must be stilted and one-dimensional, lest this person take offense at another innocuous remark.

Every family has one member that, unhappy in her personal life, makes everyone else miserable when gathered together.

What’s the saying by Thomas Merton? Something like, “You are not at peace with others because you are not at peace with yourself. You are not at peace with yourself because you are not at peace with God.”

Now, this is not meant as a personal anything to you, tweety. It’s just an observation I’m making.

And before you say, “Thank you!” I’m going to go ahead and pre-empt that with a resounding, “You’re welcome!”

Tweety; this is another example.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Thank you and I have a very happy personal life and am happy as anyone can be. And I have never had that happen at a family gathering. I am at peace with myself and God and I do not need to be admonished by anyone, period except Jesus of course.
I already told you I praise Jesus everytime someone says something to or about me.

As far as anyone acting like they are perfect I have seen this in a lot of post, not just to me but to anyone who disagrees with the Catholic Church. I tell you the truth I have received more PMs from Protestants and Catholic who have been insulted by a number of people here and have left and in their emails to me, have said" If I ever thought about becoming a Catholic these people would sure turn me away" and Catholics that have said" Boy I sure am glad I don’t know any Catholics like that" So dear lady it isn’t me it is other people. I don’t turn away because I am a tough old broad.

Good for you!

 

[Timothy_Piper]

We do know that the works he did still missed the target. Else why was Peter called to deliver the Gospel to him?

Seems like a no brainer

 

[Timothy_Piper]

If Cornelius was a “God-fearer” (a Gentile who recognized the Truth in Judiasm), then maybe his practices were consistent with what he was able to do as a Gentile under the old covenant?

It is called FAITH; had nothing to do with what he was doing as much as it had to do with why he was doing it, from a heart of belief. He believed and had Faith in the Jewish God and walked by that Faith as far as it was revealed.

 

[PRmerger]

Tweety; this is another example.

Perhaps, Timothy. Perhaps.

However, if you have an argument with my position, then let’s discuss!

 

[izoid]

Hi Tweety,

Do you not see the condescension you are receiving? Saying “I am glad you are growing in the grace of God, but you are not a Catholic and causing a riff w/in CAF”. This is sarcasm, not sincerity. The only thing worse is that Catholic group that is so liberal they want female priests, most Catholics would not recognize them as Catholic, like yourself, call them “separated brethren” at best after Vatican II and damned before that.

I’m just telling you so you don’t keep getting “played”.

Timothy

You are very presumptuous to think that you can tell Tweety anything she does not already know. She is the one “playing” all of us.

 

[izoid]

Seems like a no brainer

Is it possible, as you said earlier and Guan also, that Peter preached to him so that the Jews could see that the truth had come to the Gentiles also?

I think you have failed to answer Guans question regarding Cornelius. How is it that his offerings and prayers were pleasing to God prior to what you believe to be his salvation?

 

[izoid]

It is called FAITH; had nothing to do with what he was doing as much as it had to do with why he was doing it, from a heart of belief. He believed and had Faith in the Jewish God and walked by that Faith as far as it was revealed.

So then, the doctrine of total depravity states that man can do nothing to please God in his natural state. How is it then that this man had faith? He wasn’t yet “saved” was he? Was Cornelius an exception? After all, he was not yet saved but his works of faith were pleasing to God.

 

[guanophore]

Sound like Protestant theology; are you a Catholic in disguise only?

I am a revert who previously spent three years in an Evangelical Seminary. However, I have never been able to understand Calvanist Theology, and I am trying. Some of my favorite sparring partners on here are Calvanist, so I have learned a lot, but I am still mystified about certain aspects.

Do you believe you must be baptized to receive saving grace?  If so, then you are bound by the works righteousness salvation.  Why?  Because the moment you say "I must do something in order for God to act toward my own salvation"; then it is no longer God's salvation.

No. God commands us to be baptized, and He works through this sacrament, but His grace is not confined to the sacrament. One of the best examples of this is Cornelius, who received saving grace and was filled with the HS.

Besides, the fact that God works through physical matter to convey His grace does not equate to “works righteousness”. Your concusion is false, with regard to us doing something. Scripture states “as many as received Him”. This is our part.

Let me demonstrate further. If you are blind, and Jesus applies mud to your eyes, and tells you to go wash in a pool, and you do so, and receive your sight, was this healing “works based”? I think you will agree it is not. Though Jesus may attach certain physical or action steps to His grace, it does not make the “works based”. His grace and healing are not predicated upon our actions, but upon His mercy.

If a religion has a bunch of you must do this and must do that's; it is a form of a legalistic righteousness IMO and many others.

Well, then you and the others would be misled. Freedom is not the license to act wrongly, but the ability to follow God’s commandments. The fact that there are many things we must do to lead an upright and God glorifying life does not mean that our faith is “legalistic”. We act in righteousness because of His grace, not because of our own abilities.

Paul knows the gospel of his salvation and he knew the moment he believed that he was justified before the Lord, saved!

Yes, and he also knew that he was working out his salvation throughout this life, and that it would not be completed in this life.

 You are protestant...:thumbsup:

No, but Protestant theology has retained a large amount of Apostolic Teaching, this included.

 Is justified saved? or not?

Yes and no. It marks the beginning of one’s walk with God, and the onset of sanctification which has, at it’s end, eternal life.

You miss the whole point of the passage; I did for quite a while myself, but the apostles are always speaking in human and/or God terms or a human perspective or God's perspective concerning ***time***; this is why we are justified, are being sanctified and will be glorified, this is human terminology.  Here is God terminology:

Romans 8 -
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and** these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. ** There is the whole process wrapped up from how God sees it! Isn’t that wonderful?

Yes, of course! However, the Apostle here is using the past tense, and with it he describes those persons for whom this has already been completed. We see some examples in Heb. 11. However, all of this is not yet complete in us.

 Once you begin reading Scripture with this in the back of your mind; you will see it throughout the OT and the NT.

Yes, this much has become clear to me in my conversation with my Calvanist brethren. They read all of scripture through these lenses, and it changes their understanding of it. However, I am under the apostolic commandment to preserve what has been entrusted to the Church, and that frame of reference is a significant departure from what they believed and taught.

 

[guanophore]

I'll give you example of where it hits us in the face.  When was the present day Christian's sins forgiven? Past, present and/or future?  Most people will say He has forgiven our past (Catholics at baptism) and will forgive when we ask our present sin and if (speaking from a Catholic position) we go to the confessional & do penance, then He will forgive our future sins.

This is not correct, all sins were paid when? At the cross! How long ago was that? 2000 years ago. BTW, this should be the human perspective because from the God perspective; they were paid before the first sin was committed because God purposed it before time. I hope this puts a new light on your Bible reading and study because the truths I have written are profound.

There are two different sides of the transaction here. Christ paid for all the sins. Suppose I visit a plantation that keeps slaves. I purchase all the slaves on the farm then I invite them to get into my cart and go with me. Some of them choose not to go, and stay on the farm. Did their refusal to avail themselves of my gift make it any less “sufficient”? Did I not pay the whole price? yet, those for whom the price was paid do not benefit from it unless they choose to receive it.

Where does the NT say there is a Catholic gospel? It is not in my Bible; perhaps it lies in the uninspired apocrypha?

There is only one Gospel. Those like yourself who have become separated from the Apostolic succession only have received part of it, because you are no longer able to follow the Apostolic instruction to keep all that was given, either by word of mouth, or in writing.

 

[Rocket_Man]

So then, the doctrine of total depravity states that man can do nothing to please God in his natural state. How is it then that this man had faith? He wasn’t yet “saved” was he? Was Cornelius an exception? After all, he was not yet saved but his works of faith were pleasing to God.

I don’t understand the difference with Cornelius and Abraham?

 

[guanophore]

At the same time as all Christians; when they received the HS of promise…

Ok, so here is my question. If the heart is turned against God until a person is regenerated, does that mean the worship of Cornelius prior to that time was as “filthy rags”?

 

[guanophore]

Hi Tweety,

Do you not see the condescension you are receiving? Saying “I am glad you are growing in the grace of God, but you are not a Catholic and causing a riff w/in CAF”. This is sarcasm, not sincerity. The only thing worse is that Catholic group that is so liberal they want female priests, most Catholics would not recognize them as Catholic, like yourself, call them “separated brethren” at best after Vatican II and damned before that.

I’m just telling you so you don’t keep getting “played”.

Timothy

No, Tim, this is not sarcasm. The Catholic Church believes that God works through Protestant ecclesial communities to bring people to Himself. God worked through such communities in my heart for about 25 years before I returned to communion. Even after that, I was in the frame of mind Tweety has, where I still thought I could pick and choose. I have since been corrected on this, and realize that it is disingenuous to call oneself a Catholic when one rejects the teachings of the Church. This does not mean one is not Christian, or one’s life has not been touched and used by God.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

You are very presumptuous to think that you can tell Tweety anything she does not already know. She is the one “playing” all of us.

So in your thinking ; it make sit right? Love thy neighbor as thy self - Period.

 

[po18guy]

This coming from someone who sounds more Protestant than Catholic…

I believe that you have this exactly backward, since this is Catholic teaching from day one. Remember that we have the same origins.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

So then, the doctrine of total depravity states that man can do nothing to please God in his natural state. How is it then that this man had faith? He wasn’t yet “saved” was he? Was Cornelius an exception? After all, he was not yet saved but his works of faith were pleasing to God.

You do not have the mind of Christ; the Faith is a gift of God’s grace; He purposed the centurion. It wasn’t the works that pleased God or has ever pleased God; it is a HEART of belief, true belief; that kind of Faith God uses to display His glory in the works He predetermined that the saved would wlk in them to demonstrate through that believer His glory, which resides in the person of faith is the form of the HS.

It has always been this way with God; it is by Faith alone, trusting in Him with your heart alone, receiving His grace as His sovereign act alone. This is why those that live by rituals and legalism in the past and the present will never be justified before God on those basis. It is also the reason why these types of religions never have any real security in salvation and for good reason according to the Bible.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Ok, so here is my question. If the heart is turned against God until a person is regenerated, does that mean the worship of Cornelius prior to that time was as “filthy rags”?

Isaiah 64:

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

 

[guanophore]

It is called FAITH; had nothing to do with what he was doing as much as it had to do with why he was doing it, from a heart of belief. He believed and had Faith in the Jewish God and walked by that Faith as far as it was revealed.

Ok, we are in agreement on this point. What I don’t understand in this is that my Reformed brethren tell me that the person is totally depraved, and that all his works are as “filthy rags” until he is regenerated. Do you see my quandary here?

 

[po18guy]

Wonderful to see that Jesus has rescued Tweety, yes, but you have been misled that she is “catholic clay”. You have fallen over the same stumblingn block that 2nd has. You have been duped into thinking that it is proper for a person to call themselves Catholic when they reject the Teachings of the Church. It sounds, from Tweety’s testimony, that she has been a very faithful Protestant during all these years, growing in grace. For some reason, at this time in her walk with God, she has found it expedient to represent herself as someone she is not. It is causing a painful scandal here on CAF. Moldable clay, bravo. Misrepresenting the truth, not so much.

Amen!

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[guanophore]

So then, the doctrine of total depravity states that man can do nothing to please God in his natural state. How is it then that this man had faith? He wasn’t yet “saved” was he? Was Cornelius an exception? After all, he was not yet saved but his works of faith were pleasing to God.

Thanks Iz. I think you worded my stuck point better than I did!