"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Tomb54]

We must have the full message. . . ‘deliver the whole counsel of God’. . . . It starts with the Law. The Law of God … the demands of a righteous God, the wrath of God. That is the way to bring men and women to conviction; not by modifying the Truth… We must confront them with the fact that they are men and that they are fallible men, that they are dying men, that they are sinful men, and that they will all have to stand before God at the Bar of Eternal Judgement…And then we must present to them the full-orbed doctrine of the Grace of God in Salvation in Jesus Christ. We must show that no man is saved ‘by the deeds of the Law’, by his own goodness or righteousness, or church membership or anything else, but solely, utterly, entirely by the free gift of God in Jesus Christ His Son. . . . We must preach the full-orbed doctrine leaving nothing out-conviction of sin, the reality of Judgement and Hell, free grace, justification, sanctification, glorification. We must also show that there is a world view in the Bible … that here alone you can understand history-past history, present history, future history. Let us show this great world view, and God’s Eternal purpose… Let us at the same time be very careful that we are giving it to the whole man … the gospel is not only for a man’s heart, that you start with his head and present Truth to it … Let us show that it is a great message given by God which we in turn pass on to the mind, to the heart, **to the will. **There is ever this danger of leaving out some part or other of man’s personality… Let us be certain that we address the whole man-his mind, his emotions and his will.
D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

This was on the gospel page of articles not sure it was the page you directed me to first but it looks like some writers on the page say man has a will which would say if he has a will he can make a choice so freewill.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So Adam and Eve had freewill thus were made in the **Image and likeness of God **but after the fall we (their Children) were not so we became like creatures no different than dogs or cats except God wanted to make us love Him if He so elected us? Did I get that right because that is how it sounded by your explanation?
If we do not have freewill then we are not made in the Image of God and Jesus did not take on our nature when He became human (or whatever He became since is was not the same Human man we were since by your definition we had no freewill any longer (or are you saying Jesus had no freewill either?)).

Please read Romans chapter 6. Our wills are either in bondage of our fallen sinful nature, or we are slaves of righteousness. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is one of the best Reformed pastor/theologians. He is speaking about a will that has been renewed through regeneration.

 

[Tomb54]

Ok I see some of your belief you think God created man flawed (a tendency toward evil) thus if he has freewill he will go to evil and not to God (good) but the problem here is you think God would create something the is pure evil while we Catholic think everything God makes is good and God has written on his heart the moral laws thus he wants to do good usually but he has freewill to go after the lesser goods of this world instead of the greater good which is God. In perusing these lesser goods man makes them his god thus Jesus says you can not serve 2 gods. You must choose money (sex,food,self indulgences of this world) or God. Thus Catholic belief man has the freewill to choose good over evil while you believe man must be forced to follow good or he will migrate to evil. I read a part of the writings of Calvin himself which states this. Very interesting way to look at God.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Please read Romans chapter 6. Our wills are either in bondage of our fallen sinful nature, or we are slaves of righteousness. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is one of the best Reformed pastor/theologians. He is speaking about a will that has been renewed through regeneration.

Let me get this straight:

Adam and Eve had a free will, by God’s own creation and His Sovereignty isn’t impugned.
New believers now regain their free wills and His Sovereignty isn’t impugned.

According to your theology, free will and God can mixed without denying God’s sovereignty in two instances.

In order to have the basis of your theology, you must prove to us how fallen Adam somehow “unmade” his own free will, which was God created Himself.

For the new Catholics joining us here on the thread, we’ve been down this road before. Strangely, Adam has chosen to join us again on his own thread once the Cornelius questions have passed.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Let me get this straight:

Adam and Eve had a free will, by God’s own creation and His Sovereignty isn’t impugned.
New believers now regain their free wills and His Sovereignty isn’t impugned.

According to your theology, free will and God can mixed without denying God’s sovereignty in two instances.

In order to have the basis of your theology, you must prove to us how fallen Adam somehow “unmade” his own free will, which was God created Himself.

For the new Catholics joining us here on the thread, we’ve been down this road before. Strangely, Adam has chosen to join us again on his own thread once the Cornelius questions have passed.

I posted my Cornelius responses three different times. What’s the obession with Cornelius?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Please read Romans chapter 6. Our wills are either in bondage of our fallen sinful nature, or we are slaves of righteousness.

I would like to add 1 John 3 also.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Tomb54]

Please read Romans chapter 6. Our wills are either in bondage of our fallen sinful nature, or we are slaves of righteousness. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is one of the best Reformed pastor/theologians. He is speaking about a will that has been renewed through regeneration.

So I read Romans 6 and it looks like you get to choose between evil and good.

Now read 2Peter 2 verse 20 on – States that you can choose God and be a slaves of righteous of God but then choose to forsake it and thus be worse off than before now that you choose evil over what you had been given freely from God. Still shows choice to accept or not accept that free offering of Grace. (Thus you must persevere in living in God’s Grace which is stated in scriptures as much as determinism so determinism does not negate freewill)

The definition of will shows you have a choice thus freewill.
The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action

 

[Timothy_Piper]

There are two different sides of the transaction here. Christ paid for all the sins. Suppose I visit a plantation that keeps slaves. I purchase all the slaves on the farm then I invite them to get into my cart and go with me. Some of them choose not to go, and stay on the farm. Did their refusal to avail themselves of my gift make it any less “sufficient”? Did I not pay the whole price? yet, those for whom the price was paid do not benefit from it unless they choose to receive it.

It is a free GIFT and God desires all men to be saved, but you must take the Gift, are you going to take it?

There is only one Gospel. Those like yourself who have become separated from the Apostolic succession only have received part of it, because you are no longer able to follow the Apostolic instruction to keep all that was given, either by word of mouth, or in writing.

What part are we missing? Has it ever occurred to you that anyone who preaches the true gospel is preaching what the apostles and writers preached? This succession thing makes little sense as your religion applies it. It reminds me of when Paul got on some for saying I am of Apollos, I am of Paul, I am of Peter and warned and chastened about such things. By definition, anyone who preaches the same gospel as in the Bible has succeeded the original authors message, which is God’s message to man. You seem like a pretty smart and informed person concerning the Bible, but at the same time you don’t seem to be sure of exactly what to believe; I’m probably wrong on that, but just seems that way.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I posted my Cornelius responses three different times. What’s the obession with Cornelius?

You re-stating your position but didn’t answer Guan’s actual questions.

Now, care to answer those and my observations about free will and God in your theology?

 

[Tomb54]

It is a free GIFT and God desires all men to be saved, but you must take the Gift, are you going to take it?

What part are we missing? Has it ever occurred to you that anyone who preaches the true gospel is preaching what the apostles and writers preached? This succession thing makes little sense as your religion applies it. It reminds me of when Paul got on some for saying I am of Apollos, I am of Paul, I am of Peter and warned and chastened about such things. By definition, anyone who preaches the same gospel as in the Bible has succeeded the original authors message, which is God’s message to man. You seem like a pretty smart and informed person concerning the Bible, but at the same time you don’t seem to be sure of exactly what to believe; I’m probably wrong on that, but just seems that way.

Those the read the bible read the same gospels the Apostle taught but in their interpretation is where they get into trouble or do you say there are 30,000 true interpretation of the gospel preached by the original authors? You did state if they preach the same gospel can you tell me who today can tell us which of the 30,000 preached is the right one?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Ok, so here is my question. If the heart is turned against God until a person is regenerated, does that mean the worship of Cornelius prior to that time was as “filthy rags”?

Who prepares the heart to be able to receive and believe the Word? When is the person actually justified? Before or after receiving the Holy Spirit (NT)? Hopefully by answering those questions it; you will have answered you own question.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Those the read the bible read the same gospels the Apostle taught but in their interpretation is where they get into trouble or do you say there are 30,000 true interpretation of the gospel preached by the original authors? You did state if they preach the same gospel can you tell me who today can tell us which of the 30,000 preached is the right one?

Please share your Catholic hope which is different than my hope as a Protestant Christian. What’s the difference?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

No, Tim, this is not sarcasm. The Catholic Church believes that God works through Protestant ecclesial communities to bring people to Himself. God worked through such communities in my heart for about 25 years before I returned to communion. Even after that, I was in the frame of mind Tweety has, where I still thought I could pick and choose. I have since been corrected on this, and realize that it is disingenuous to call oneself a Catholic when one rejects the teachings of the Church. This does not mean one is not Christian, or one’s life has not been touched and used by God.

Before or after Vatican II?

 

[Tomb54]

Let me get this straight:

Adam and Eve had a free will, by God’s own creation and His Sovereignty isn’t impugned.
New believers now regain their free wills and His Sovereignty isn’t impugned.

According to your theology, free will and God can mixed without denying God’s sovereignty in two instances.

In order to have the basis of your theology, you must prove to us how fallen Adam somehow “unmade” his own free will, which was God created Himself.

For the new Catholics joining us here on the thread, we’ve been down this road before. Strangely, Adam has chosen to join us again on his own thread once the Cornelius questions have passed.

I was not sure what was all covered since this thread is pretty big. I did read allot but sure I missed allot too. I am still kinda wondering did Adam2 state why God can only create evil when he is suppose to be good? I know this was Calvin views that man is evil and thus must go toward evil by his will but he also admits God made all things thus if this is true as Calvin states then God makes evil things. Just doesn’t make sense to me, just as it doesn’t make sense God would make men that He elects to go the Hell but not sure if it was covered before as I did not come across it.

 

[PRmerger]

Before or after Vatican II?

What difference does Vatican II make?

The CC’s doctrines and dogmas are the same before/during/after Vatican II.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Ok, so here is my question. If the heart is turned against God until a person is regenerated, does that mean the worship of Cornelius prior to that time was as “filthy rags”?

Guan,

Read chapter 11 of Hebrews and soak in the faith of each, but when you get to the last verse of chapter 11; you will need to read 3-4 times to really get what is being said; it is quite astonishing, but it is because the OT saints and di not receive what was promised. Why? Because God had not instituted the New Covenant yet. Take a look at it; it is very interesting.

 

[Tomb54]

Please share your Catholic hope which is different than my hope as a Protestant Christian. What’s the difference?

I hope to be in heaven with our Lord when I die, but I am not sure I understand what you mean because you can not hope for something that is seen but only for something that is unseen. So I thought Calvinist do not hope but know for sure they are the elect or is this a hope they are one of the elect and you have no more guarantee than Catholics have and thus must persevere to the end as St Paul tells us we must.

I do believe by the way that many Protestants know at least part of the truth and what they know is able to get them to heaven.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Amen!

A reminder which applies to all of us:

USERNAME RULES:
4. If the user name you choose contains offensive or misleading elements or innuendo, your account will be canceled and you will be banned from future participation at this site.

CONDUCT RULES
6. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
7. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

Sounds very subjective, but it is after-all a Catholic forum.

 

[Tomb54]

Who prepares the heart to be able to receive and believe the Word? When is the person actually justified? Before or after receiving the Holy Spirit (NT)? Hopefully by answering those questions it; you will have answered you own question.

The by your explanation the HS tells each person who personally interprets the gospels something different because that is what they come away with and is why there are so many different beliefs in various churches today. The bible states the church is to help you interpret the gospel so if you can figure out which church has existed since the time of the Apostles then you will know who Jesus sent the HS too to help his people know the gospels.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Don’t you think it is presumptuous to make this kind of judgement about anyone on the forum?

Yes it was presumptuous as posted, but I meant to put it in a question format. It did not escape my notice, but it was past the 20 minute period to edit. I apologize for putting it that way and as it is written you are certainly correct that it is presumptuous. I’ll be more careful.

We are in agreement on this point. Where I am having trouble is that Holy Scripture specifically references his deeds. I recognize that they are a reflection of his heart, but how can a person who is not regenerated believe and act in a way that is pleasing to God if they are totally depraved?

Act 10:31 and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.

This seems to say that God noticed Cornelius actions (prayer and alms) BEFORE he was regenerated. How does this fit together with the doctrine that such a persons’ heart is turned against God?

I believe you need to look at the entire picture with Cornelius and Peter to really understand; god was using Cornelius to make a point to the Jewish converts that Peter eventually took to Cornelius household. I posted earlier in greater detail.

If this is true, then why does anyone need to be born again? If the faith of Abraham can exist in all hearts in the form of the HS prior to regeneration, then what is the point?

Are you saying that people can have this kind of faith before they are regenerated?

Was Cornelius working off the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? That is the key to the answer. This is why I mentioned about reading through Hebrews 11, then look at the last verse. The whole argument is no one is saved w/o Jesus Christ’s atonement.

You did not answer my question, Tim. However, I will agree with you that salvation has always been by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast. But none of those in Heb. 11, nor was Cornelius saved by “faith alone”. All of them had actions that demonstrated their faith.

The actions are the result of their faith and more importantly the actions are why anyone is not immediately brought to heaven after being justified is to bring glory to God as a testimony to the world. See Jesus prayer in John 17.

Yes,. we are om agreement on this point. However, it is not the religion itself that is the problem, but the heart of the participant. We can see that God loves rutual and law, or He would not have created so much of it for the Jews. God made man so that he functions best with these structures. However, I agree with you that if one puts one’s faith in the Structure, rather than the Creator of it, it becomes a form of godliness without the power thereof.

Most of it He did not command, they kept adding to what God had given; just like many religions do, this is what makes um a form of legalism. The law is good, but only in the sense that it reveals to a man that he is a sinner and needs a savior; no person was ever saved by the works of the law. It is only by a GIFT taken on the basis of FAITH. The gospel is so simple, but I now understand why the Bible says few will find it and of those that do some/many will not be able to enter in. Humans have a problem with accepting something for nothing. I don’t know if it is unbelief or stubbornness or pride.