"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

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Carlan said:
Catholic Christians are not the only Christians guilty of this. In my opinion it happens amongst the separated Churchs every bit as much. Carlan
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My current non-denominational church took a turn toward orthodox Christianity. The three non-creedal and non-confessional elders just resigned. The teaching pastor at my church is quite Reformed. I am working on him to catechize our church.
 
Rocket_Man said:
They will claim that they also were not regenerated. My parents will stand with me and claim that their infant baptism and mine was meaningless. And where were my baptismal sponsers, I haven’t even met them? Why, because they weren’t serious about thier commitment as they weren’t regenerated either. The whole system is flawed.
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I will agree to disagree with you beloved brother. I accept that you did not experience the action of the HS in your life, and I will accept the testimony of your parents that they did not either. I do not think this is because your baptisms were invalid, but I will accept that you believe that.

What “system” do you think is flawed?

Do you think that infants should never have been baptized by the Church? Why do you think the Apostles did this?
 
Rocket_Man said:
Where? Why the word change from “sprinkle” to “pour”.
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The sprinkling is a ritual reminder, as blood was sprinkled. A leafy branch or water absorbant material was soaked, and the blood sprinkled by waving the branch. We do this today with an evergreen, or a sprinkling device made for this purpose. It reminds believers of their baptism.

Submersion has always been the preferred mode of baptism. However, in the early years of the Church, up until 325, the church was persecuted, and the Christians met in hiding. Often there was very little water, even for drinking. There was not sufficient for submersion. Pouring was used in these situations, as it is today. one thing that is refreshing to see is that full immersion fonts are being returned to Catholic Churches.
 
guanophore said:
I will agree to disagree with you beloved brother. I accept that you did not experience the action of the HS in your life, and I will accept the testimony of your parents that they did not either. I do not think this is because your baptisms were invalid, but I will accept that you believe that.

What “system” do you think is flawed?

Do you think that infants should never have been baptized by the Church? Why do you think the Apostles did this?
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*Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. *

For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
 
Rocket_Man said:
“This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are reborn from the state of slaves of sin into the freedom of the Sons of God. Baptism incorporates us with Christ’s mystical body and makes us partakers of all the privileges flowing from the redemptive act of the Church’s Divine Founder.”*
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Please cite your source, Rocket.
 
Rocket_Man said:
*Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. *

For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
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Amen!

[BIBLEDRB]Proverbs 28:14-18[/BIBLEDRB]
 
guanophore said:
The sprinkling is a ritual reminder, as blood was sprinkled. A leafy branch or water absorbant material was soaked, and the blood sprinkled by waving the branch. We do this today with an evergreen, or a sprinkling device made for this purpose. It reminds believers of their baptism.

Submersion has always been the preferred mode of baptism. However, in the early years of the Church, up until 325, the church was persecuted, and the Christians met in hiding. Often there was very little water, even for drinking. There was not sufficient for submersion. Pouring was used in these situations, as it is today. one thing that is refreshing to see is that full immersion fonts are being returned to Catholic Churches.
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King James Bible
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

NAB
And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
newadvent.org/bible/eze036.htm#vrs25

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. Why was the Word changed from “sprinkle” to “pour” in the above translation.

What was the hyssop dipped in besides the blood? Why?
 
Rocket_Man said:
“This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are reborn from the state of slaves of sin into the freedom of the Sons of God. Baptism incorporates us with Christ’s mystical body and makes us partakers of all the privileges flowing from the redemptive act of the Church’s Divine Founder.”*

We take full responsibilty for our sins before regeneration and after. However for all of us regeneration did not begin with the Catholic baptism. Rather, it began after we left the church and learned of Jesus Christ through His Living Word.
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Clearly you began to live the regenerated life at that time, just as David, many years after his annointing, took up his kingship.
 
PRmerger said:
Amen!

[BIBLEDRB]Proverbs 28:14-18[/BIBLEDRB]
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Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Amen!
 
Rocket_Man said:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Amen!
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Amen!

Do you know what the Greek word “baptizo” means, Rocket?
 
Rocket_Man said:
King James Bible
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

NAB
And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
newadvent.org/bible/eze036.htm#vrs25

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. Why was the Word changed from “sprinkle” to “pour” in the above translation.

What was the hyssop dipped in besides the blood? Why?
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Oh, I am sorry, I misunderstood the question. I am sure it reflects a doctrinal distinctive. What kind of baptism do you believe in, if any? It sounds like you don’t believe as the Apostles taught, that it is regenerative.

Hyssop is a natural laxative. The metaphorical use of the word would be internally purgative.
 
guanophore said:
Clearly you began to live the regenerated life at that time, just as David, many years after his annointing, took up his kingship.
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Clearly the Lord was with David even before he was annointed by Samuel. Why else did Saul seek David’s life?
 
PRmerger said:
Amen!

Do you know what the Greek word “baptizo” means, Rocket?
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The same as when He sends the rains.

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) ** But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.**
 
Rocket_Man said:
The same as when He sends the rains.

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) ** But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.**
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I suggest a study of the word “baptism” Rocket. You may be surprised at what you learn from the Scriptures. Today at Mass we had the reading on John the Baptist, baptizing with water for repentance. This was the Baptism Jesus received.

Did you know that the oldest record we have of this word is used in a pickle recipe?
 
guanophore said:
I suggest a study of the word “baptism” Rocket. You may be surprised at what you learn from the Scriptures. Today at Mass we had the reading on John the Baptist, baptizing with water for repentance. This was the Baptism Jesus received.

Did you know that the oldest record we have of this word is used in a pickle recipe?
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let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Did Noah have a good conscience toward God? Is that why he was saved by the Water?
 
Rocket_Man said:
Besides the blood, what was the Hyssop dipped in before it was sprinkled on the separated in the old priesthood?
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Num 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and shall dip it in the water, and shall sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched the bone, or the slain, or the dead, or the grave.

I think you are talking about the blood and water that flowed from the side of Christ on the cross. I am not making a connection to the thread topic, though. :confused:
 
Rocket_Man said:
Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
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Do you believe that the waters of baptism clean the evil conscience?
 
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