"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Dokimas]

YUP - so did the early Reformers - along with her perpetual virginity and veneration of her.

My question to Protestants is WHY don’t you guys believe in the same things your founders believed in??

I guess that weren’t correct on every point.

 

[tweetymom]

I guess that weren’t correct on every point.

Amen

 

[izoid]

Amen

Are you stating that Mary was not a perpetual virgin and that it is wrong to venerate her?

 

[tweetymom]

Are you stating that Mary was not a perpetual virgin and that it is wrong to venerate her?

Did I say that? Boy you are sure ready to jump on me. But God Blessand thank you

 

[izoid]

Did I say that? Boy you are sure ready to jump on me. But God Blessand thank you

That is what I asking you. You replied Amen to a post that insinuated that those were incorrect teachings. Is that what you meant to do?

 

[tweetymom]

That is what I asking you. You replied Amen to a post that insinuated that those were incorrect teachings. Is that what you meant to do?

Look I was agreeing that some of the teachings I don’t feel are correct nothing I said was about Mary.

 

[izoid]

Look I was agreeing that some of the teachings I don’t feel are correct nothing I said was about Mary.

OK, I thought you were agreeing with him. I am glad that you were not agreeing with the comments about Mary.

 

[tweetymom]

OK, I thought you were agreeing with him. I am glad that you were not agreeing with the comments about Mary.

Do you have no one else to argue with?

 

[izoid]

Do you have no one else to argue with?

Nobody is arguing with you. I was just trying to understand what you meant. I post that I am glad that you did not mean what I thought you did and you get angry? You really have a bad attitude Tweety. You are one of the most obstinate people I have ever corresponded with.

I for one am tired of your holier than thou attitude. You say whatever you want without ever considering the ramifications and then get hostile when asked to clarify. It is truly unfortunate that you purposely mislead and create conflict on this site. Your behavior honors no one but yourself.

No need to respond as you will forever be on my ignore list.

Yeah, yeah, I know…thank you.

 

[tweetymom]

Nobody is arguing with you. I was just trying to understand what you meant. I post that I am glad that you did not mean what I thought you did and you get angry? You really have a bad attitude Tweety. You are one of the most obstinate people I have ever corresponded with.

I for one am tired of your holier than thou attitude. You say whatever you want without ever considering the ramifications and then get hostile when asked to clarify. It is truly unfortunate that you purposely mislead and create conflict on this site. Your behavior honors no one but yourself.

No need to respond as you will forever be on my ignore list.

Yeah, yeah, I know…thank you.

Cool and thank you. You aren’t the dearest people I have ever met either

 

[izoid]

THis ignore feature is great. I can see that a person has posted something but I don’t have to be bothered by their ignorance. I can just go right along they never even posted anything. I think I may add a few more people to my ignore list, I like it that much!

 

[izoid]

I really do wish you well Tweety, I just do not like communicating with you. I find it very difficult and frustrating.

I would expect to see a much greater level of maturity in the way you interact with others given your stage in life. As a pastor I had to deal with a lot of people who were unteachable and I simply choose not to do so on this board. Your anger overflows in your interactions with anyone who is a Catholic. I hope you can see that and I hope God will soften your heart.

 

[tweetymom]

I really do wish you well Tweety, I just do not like communicating with you. I find it very difficult and frustrating.

I would expect to see a much greater level of maturity in the way you interact with others given your stage in life. As a pastor I had to deal with a lot of people who were unteachable and I simply choose not to do so on this board. Your anger overflows in your interactions with anyone who is a Catholic. I hope you can see that and I hope God will soften your heart.

My heart is soft and yes I do show my anger when accused of things I didn’t do and nby insults. If ignore works for you get to it.

 

[tweetymom]

THis ignore feature is great. I can see that a person has posted something but I don’t have to be bothered by their ignorance. I can just go right along they never even posted anything. I think I may add a few more people to my ignore list, I like it that much!

Great and I am sure that a lot of people have you on ignore too

 

[Rocket_Man]

I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church. However, almost twenty years ago, I learned of the unfailing love of our Lord, Jesus Christ through reading His Living Word. I repented of my sinful life, and with that came a change of heart for the sin I once loved. I learned of His love while spending many days in prayer and reading His Word. I still recall a day, when I could finally lift my eyes over my shame and look upon a statue of Jesus that was in a flower garden of church near where I lived. And it was that day, that I stretched out my hand and touched that statue with tears falling from my eyes and rolling down my cheek. It was that day, that I was regenerated. I was baptized six months later.

I was raised in the CC from infancy. Had twelve years of catholic education, served as an altar boy and all that. But the church was just a thing, there was no spiritual enlightenment or personal awareness of the risen Christ. My parents took me to Mass every Sunday, because they had been taught that not going was sin. For us, the CC experience was a learned system of law and sin. Repentance was “go tell it to the priest” behind the veil instead of the Living God who searches the heart.

As I may have mentioned before, as a child my favorite time at Mass was when the new monthly epistle would come out so I could read ahead all the month’s first, second, and Gospel reading. Imagine that!

Because I was spiritually dead, I proceeded to live a life that I was destined to do. I was a slave to sin and sin is what I practiced. One day while sitting on the kitchen table, my brother asked, “Has anyone ever told you about Jesus Christ”. Well that was quite an announcement coming from my older brother, for he had been in and out of drug treatment since his early teens. His love for sin led him to Portland where he sold his body to other men to support his drug habit. But now sitting there on that kitchen table, he was a changed man and a bible toting one that all the family tried to avoid. Because we knew in our hearts that something He had was real, because his changed life was the testimony to the truth of what he carried in his back pocket, a wallet size bible.

After he asked me that question, “Has anyone ever told you about Jesus Christ”, I ran out of the house and into my car and drove off. I still continued to live a drug, alcohol, and adulteress lifestyle, filled with prostitues lying and such. The workings of sin took it’s toll to where at the end I had nothing left. And it was then that I remembered the question my brother had asked me. And it was then that I picked up a bible and began to read it. And it was then that I saw who I was, a man eternally condemned before the law.

I am sorry. I am not following you. Why would being a Catholic condemn you to hell? Besides, as a Catholic, you couldn’t have been any more united to Christ. Catholics consume the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ at every Holy Communion (John 6:56). We become living tabernacles of Christ immediately after receiving Holy Communion. I have trouble seeing how some people could give that up unless they did not understand their Faith.

If God’s standard was perfect righteousness and God’s Holy Law already condemned me to eternal hell. How could I do again all what the Catholic Church teaches when I couldn’t do it the first time?

Evidently, I was not united to Christ through infant baptism as the church claims, nor were any of my family members. Instead we were united and a slave to our sinful desires. You can claim all you want in your sacraments, but they are claims lacking any evidence in our experience.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

If God’s standard was perfect righteousness and God’s Holy Law already condemned me to eternal hell. How could I do again all what the Catholic Church teaches when I couldn’t do it the first time?

Because all you must do is ask His forgiveness. I implore you, go to this site with an open heart. Some people deny things they have no idea about. I believe that if you are better educated on the Catholic Faith, you will not feel inclined to say certain things against it.

Evidently, I was not united to Christ through infant baptism as the church claims, nor were any of my family members. Instead we were united and a slave to our sinful desires. You can claim all you want in your sacraments, but they are claims lacking any evidence in our experience.

Sir, what are you talking about??? You and your family were poorly taught Church Teachings.

 

[adrift]

Originally Posted by elvisman
YUP - so did the early Reformers - along with her perpetual virginity and veneration of her.

My question to Protestants is WHY don’t you guys believe in the same things your founders believed in??

The question being asked is why he doesn’t believe in the virginity and veneration of Mary as the founders of his religion did
Dokimasanswer

I guess that weren’t correct on every point.

Tweetymom agrees with his answer

Amen

Izoid asked for clarification

Are you stating that Mary was not a perpetual virgin and that it is wrong to venerate her?

tweetymom stated

Look I was agreeing that some of the teachings I don’t feel are correct nothing I said was about Mary.

Since the statement you were saying amen to was in answer to a statement on Mary it was a reasonable question. You should have been glad to have it cleared up because logically in context you were agreeing that Mary was not a virgin and should not be venerated.

 

[izoid]

The question being asked is why he doesn’t believe in the virginity and veneration of Mary as the founders of his religion did
Dokimasanswer

Tweetymom agrees with his answer

Izoid asked for clarification

tweetymom stated

Since the statement you were saying amen to was in answer to a statement on Mary it was a reasonable question. You should have been glad to have it cleared up because logically in context you were agreeing that Mary was not a virgin and should not be venerated.

Thank you, I am glad that I am not crazy.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Because all you must do is ask His forgiveness. I implore you, go to this site with an open heart. Some people deny things they have no idea about. I believe that if you are better educated on the Catholic Faith, you will not feel inclined to say certain things against it.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Carlan]

If God’s standard was perfect righteousness and God’s Holy Law already condemned me to eternal hell. How could I do again all what the Catholic Church teaches when I couldn’t do it the first time?

Evidently, I was not united to Christ through infant baptism as the church claims, nor were any of my family members. Instead we were united and a slave to our sinful desires. You can claim all you want in your sacraments, but they are claims lacking any evidence in our experience.

Sorry Rocket for my bluntness, but have you never considered your rebellon and your sinfulness the result of the work of the evil one instead Christ’s holy Church?.Carlan