"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Rocket_Man]

Sorry Rocket for my bluntness, but have you never considered your rebellon and your sinfulness the result of the work of the evil one instead Christ’s holy Church?.Carlan

I think you misunderstand. I’m not blaming the church. The church was not responsible for my blindness. Yet, the infant baptism did not change my spiritual condition.

“Because I was spiritually dead, I proceeded to live a life that I was destined to do. I was a slave to sin and sin is what I practiced.”

 

[PRmerger]

Yet, the infant baptism did not change my spiritual condition.

That is an absurd statement. Since you *were *baptized–you cannot change the indelible mark it left on your soul–you simply cannot make any conclusions about what effect it did or did not have on your spiritual condition. Every single spiritual thought you’ve had has been because of the influence of this baptism.

The fact that you’re here now on the Catholic Answers forums may be because of the longing in your soul for the Truth, because of this baptism.

The fact that you ache to hear His Word is because of the grace infused into your soul at your infant baptism.

How would you know otherwise? You were indelibly changed at the moment of your infant baptism.

 

[Carlan]

I think you misunderstand. I’m not blaming the church. The church was not responsible for my blindness. Yet, the infant baptism did not change my spiritual condition.

“Because I was spiritually dead, I proceeded to live a life that I was destined to do. I was a slave to sin and sin is what I practiced.”

If you rec’d baptism in the Catholic Church.You were washed clean of the original sin of Adam .the sin was not covered over it was gone and Justification was imparted at that time .Baptism is an indelible mark which stays in the soul FOREVER. Look into your true heritage. What do you have to lose.?Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

That is an absurd statement. Since you *were *baptized–you cannot change the indelible mark it left on your soul–you simply cannot make any conclusions about what effect it did or did not have on your spiritual condition. Every single spiritual thought you’ve had has been because of the influence of this baptism.

You my friend, have the horse before the cart? Doesn’t it thunder and lightning before it rains?

Absolutely I was not regenerated. And your attempt to persuade me otherwise may originate from your own insecurity.

**Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.**

 

[guanophore]

I do not per se blame any one particular thing, or person. I did not get my first Communion until I was 11. Then the Nuns ridiculed me because I was so old and talked unkindly of my parents who had divorced when I was 3. Now it left a lasting effect on my life then and even now. I was only taught what I had to do in Mass in class, never the reason things are done. Nothing Biblical. So my first communion was just an act of of doing it because the Nuns said so.

I am sorry that you had such a miserable spiritual formation, Tweety. Unfortunately, this happened to a lot of us. Some have left the Catholic church and never returned for these reasons.

I did not come into the full knowledge of Christ until I was 35 and that thru BSF and a very personal and life changing experience with Jesus. It was an earth moving experience for me, something I had never felt before. Got into a very intense Bible study joined a Church and learned about God for the very first time in my life.

This is an awesome testimony. It is great that you were so open to the Lord, and willing to let His Spirit move you into Life.

I have never been too concerned about this Church or that Church, because that as believers we are the Church, and if you don’t take Jesus with you the name on the door does not mean a thing. I do not get involved in most laws of this and that or this Tradition or that tradition**, I believe in Jesus and that He died on the cross to save me.**

This being the case, something like what is written in this last sentence would be an excellent line to replace the words “Born Again Catholic” in your affiliation.

So I am going to say as Timothy said in another thread. Thank you for all the critism I consider it a blessing.

We are not criticizing your conversion, just your hypocritical representation of yourself as Catholic. If it does not matter, why cling to it? Maybe it matters more than you thought, and that is why you can 't let it go?

 

[Rocket_Man]

**Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.**

A Psalm of David.

Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings,*
ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
Ascribe to the Lord the glory of his name;
worship the Lord in holy splendour.
The voice of the Lord is over the waters;
the God of glory thunders,
the Lord, over mighty waters.
The voice of the Lord is powerful;
the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.
The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars;
the Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
He makes Lebanon skip like a calf,
and Sirion like a young wild ox.
The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire.
The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness;
the Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
The voice of the Lord causes the oaks to whirl,*
and strips the forest bare;
and in his temple all say, ‘Glory!’
The Lord sits enthroned over the flood;
the Lord sits enthroned as king for ever.
May the Lord give strength to his people!
May the Lord bless his people with peace!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

**Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.**

This is what you should have asked for before you decided to leave the Church. God grants even the worst sinners pardon, if they are truly sorry.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness

2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

 

[Rocket_Man]

This is what you should have asked for before you decided to leave the Church. God grants even the worst sinners pardon, if they are truly sorry.

For some reason, I do not think your hearing me. There was no knowledge of God before I left the church. It was a thing, like brushing your teeth after you eat.

To continue my story of my conversion from condemnation to life through the everlasting grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I told you before in my posts of my awful sinful life and my reading the Word of God, my eventual trusting of the free gift that Jesus offered, because I was convinced that He was True. I came to believe that He was indeed the “Son of the Living God” and only He held the keys to everlasting life and forgiveness of my sin through the shedding of His precious blood on the alter that His Father had prepared for Him.

Knowing this, and who I was, a sinful, undeserving, and unworthy beggar, I put my hand with His hand, and trusted Him for my salvation in this life and in the one to come. You see, I knew I had nothing to offer before Him, I was condemned to eternal damnation before His Holy law. So, mercy and grace is all that I could ever recieve from Him.

Most importantly as I stated before, I knew who I was and my love for sin and therefore there was no reason to reach out for His hand if He were to leave me without the promise of His helping me. Else I would just return to the same lifestyle I was leading. Why enter into an agreement if you know that you are unable to fullfill your word?

So I can only say that He has remained faithful to me and through His spirit and the seed of an unexplainable love in my heart for Him, He has lifted me out of the eternal damnation I deserved. Now He goes before me and proclaims me as an adopted son of the Most High and I proclaim Him as King and Savior of Heaven and Earth.

My testimony to you is that Jesus Christ is Alive, and “He IS”, and He sits on the heavenly throne to redeem sinners into His kingdom of everlasting life. This is as I understand the “Good News” of the Gospel.

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Rocket_Man~
I understand your story. I am happy you found freedom from your chains of misery, and sin. But what I cannot understand is why you left the Church when all you had to do was learn about God and renew your relationship with Him. He died for and promised mercy to everyone…

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket_Man~
I understand your story. I am happy you found freedom from your chains of misery, and sin. But what I cannot understand is why you left the Church when all you had to do was learn about God and renew your relationship with Him. He died for and promised mercy to everyone…

I never ever had any relationship with Him in the CC, never! never! never! never! once!
Blind! Blind! Blind!..so there was never any thought of a renewal with something I never had. Not regenerated!

By the time I was nine years old, other catholic boys in the neighborhood including myself were engaging in homosexual acts with eachother.

If His Word was truely living in the body of the church, then it didn’t speak to me from there either.

I found mercy and forgiveness outside the CC. Can’t you believe it?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I never ever had any relationship with Him in the CC, never! never! never! never! once!
Blind! Blind! Blind!..so there was never any thought of a renewal with something I never had. Not regenerated!

By the time I was nine years old, other catholic boys in the neighborhood including myself were engaging in homosexual acts with eachother.
**
If His Word was truely living in the body of the church, then it didn’t speak to me from there either.**

Because you were not desiring it at the time! By the time you had a personal and true relationship with Him, you were out of the Catholic Church, therefore you had no good reason to leave it.

 

[guanophore]

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Where’s the water?

Just read one more verse!

Act 10:47 Can anyone forbid the water that these not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit received, even as we also?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to remain some days.

The Apostles understood that there was only one baptism, and that the HS was not separated from the water.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Because you were not desiring it at the time! By the time you had a personal and true relationship with Him, you were out of the Catholic Church, therefore you had no good reason to leave it.

But why wasn’t I desiring it at the time or anytime in the CC, if the bondage to sin was to be lifted and replaced with a bondage to Christ along with the gift of spiritual enlightenment through infant baptism that the church claims?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Just read one more verse!

Act 10:47 Can anyone forbid the water that these not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit received, even as we also?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to remain some days.

The Apostles understood that there was only one baptism, and that the HS was not separated from the water.

Thanks guan, we concluded then in this case, the Holy Spirit was received before baptism. Right?

 

[guanophore]

As I may have mentioned before, as a child my favorite time at Mass was when the new monthly epistle would come out so I could read ahead all the month's first, second, and Gospel reading. Imagine that!

Because I was spiritually dead,…

That is certainly a curious interest for a “spiritually dead” person to have.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

But why wasn’t I desiring it at the time or anytime in the CC, if the bondage to sin was to be lifted and replaced with a bondage to Christ along with the gift of spiritual enlightenment through infant baptism that the church claims?

You weren’t desiring it because your heart wasn’t in it. A protestant can go through all the motions of being a protestant without their heart in it. It can happen to anyone. You* must *desire it.

Now, as for “bondage to Christ along with the gift of spiritual enlightenment through infant baptism”, all I can say is this: We owe all we are to Christ. If we live this way, giving Him our all, then there will be no problem receiving spiritual enlightenment. Through baptism an infant receives sanctifying grace, the infused virtues of faith, hope, and charity, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rocket_Man]

You weren’t desiring it because your heart wasn’t in it. A protestant can go through all the motions of being a protestant without their heart in it. It can happen to anyone. You* must *desire it.

Now, as for “bondage to Christ along with the gift of spiritual enlightenment through infant baptism”, all I can say is this: We owe all we are to Christ. If we live this way, giving Him our all, then there will be no problem receiving spiritual enlightenment. Through baptism an infant receives sanctifying grace, the infused virtues of faith, hope, and charity, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I didn’t desire it. Period…

The Catholic Claim

This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are **reborn from the state of slaves of sin **into the freedom of the Sons of God. Baptism incorporates us with Christ’s mystical body and makes us partakers of all the privileges flowing from the redemptive act of the Church’s Divine Founder. We shall now outline the principal effects of baptism.

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#XII

Confirmation Claims

an increase of **sanctifying grace which makes the recipient a “perfect Christian”; **
a **special sacramental grace consisting in the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost **and notably in the strength and courage to confess boldly the name of Christ;
an indelible character by reason of which the sacrament cannot be received again by the same person.

newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm

Please no “magic pill” responses.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I didn’t desire it. Period…

The Catholic Claim

This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are **reborn from the state of slaves of sin **into the freedom of the Sons of God. Baptism incorporates us with Christ’s mystical body and makes us partakers of all the privileges flowing from the redemptive act of the Church’s Divine Founder. We shall now outline the principal effects of baptism.

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#XII

Confirmation Claims

an increase of **sanctifying grace which makes the recipient a “perfect Christian”; **
a **special sacramental grace consisting in the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost **and notably in the strength and courage to confess boldly the name of Christ;
an indelible character by reason of which the sacrament cannot be received again by the same person.

newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm

Please no “magic pill” responses.

Your source is correct.

 

[izoid]

But why wasn’t I desiring it at the time or anytime in the CC, if the bondage to sin was to be lifted and replaced with a bondage to Christ along with the gift of spiritual enlightenment through infant baptism that the church claims?

Why is it that God’s chosen people, Israel, had to spend 40 years in the desert?