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bookofpeter
Guest
Defiantly Trinitarian and you are exactly right Christ (Son of God) appeared in human form. Therefore – “the image of God, which is man.”
Have a wonderful day
- Status
Have a wonderful day
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tskrobacz
Guest
For me it most importantly means don’t make the Church into your God…worship God alone and look to the Church for guidance and the Saints as examples of how to live humbly and simply in this world.
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bookofpeter
Guest
What a coincidence.
I just happen to be reading the works of St Clement of Alexandria for the last two weeks.
He was born about 150 AD.
The Stromata is the third in Clement of Alexandria’s trilogy of works on the Christian life.
“Numa the king of the Romans was a Pythagorean, and aided by the precepts of Moses, prohibited from making an image of God in human form, and of the shape of a living creature. Accordingly, during the first hundred and seventy years, though building temples, they made no cast or graven image….”
I just happen to be reading the works of St Clement of Alexandria for the last two weeks.
He was born about 150 AD.
The Stromata is the third in Clement of Alexandria’s trilogy of works on the Christian life.
“Numa the king of the Romans was a Pythagorean, and aided by the precepts of Moses, prohibited from making an image of God in human form, and of the shape of a living creature. Accordingly, during the first hundred and seventy years, though building temples, they made no cast or graven image….”
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asd72
Guest
Well are you a Pythagorean? Do you worship in a Pythagorean Temple? I’m not seeing the point.
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Scruples
Guest
Now let me see if I have things right in my understanding of what has happened here.
First, I hear you implying that you hold the scriptures to be authoritative and that the issue is just a matter of how your church and mine happen to place the numbers in grouping the provisions of the 10 commandments. But, when I demonstrate that even catholic bibles preclude such a happenstance, you change your argument, casting doubt on the accuracy of the scriptures. Now, I am asked to believe, that since the Church of Rome cannot err, this Scriptures must be in error. Then I show that your Father, Pope Pious X11, holds your Bible inerrant, you agree, but then seem to gloss right over the point. It seems to make no difference to you. Why not?
And now, When I demonstrate that the scriptures were held by Christ and St Luke as authoritative, even in validating or invalidating their own messages, you interpret it completely opposite. Are you trying to tell me that the Beans where not commended for checking out Paul’s message by the Scriptures, to see if he was telling the truth? But rather they were held “more noble” for checking to see if the Scriptures were reliable? How can any candid mind believe such a thing? Can anyone else on this forum believe such logic, so absolutely contradictory to the clearest meaning of the text? I hope there at least one here can. Can I have a witness? Is there not one that can affirm that anything I have shared here it truth? How about the dear brother that started this tread? Are you satisfied with the answers given by our Catholic brothers?
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DLG123
Guest
As I have been reading there have been several satisfactory answers to your point. Yet you still seem to think that we are lying to you…
Let me say this as clear as possible…
Ready here it goes…
CATHOLICS DO NOT…
I REPEAT… *DO NOT *WORSHIP STATUES. This is what God commanded against WORSHIPING them. If you would read a little history you would understand why he forbid this. Because the Jews were worshiping the statues of egyptian gods. This is the same reasons for the sacrifice of certain animals and the forbiddance of eating pork.
So in your reasoning that we are not to make ANY graven images. Then God commanded Moses and the rest of the Jews to sin when building the Ark and the serpent on the staff. So are you saying that God commands His people to sin? This also means that just about everything in our society: paintings, hunting mounts, pictures, movies, any type of house, childrens dolls, angel collectibles are all sins. Is that really your belief?
Again you seem to want a conflict rather than a conversation.
Peace
DLG
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asd72
Guest
The Bereans checked the scriptures (old testament), to see if the oral teaching of Paul was correct. They had no scripture as far as the new testament went. They listened the the church, which is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), through the Apostle Paul, who received his mission directly by God and was verified by the the pillars James Peter and John (Gal 2:9).
Sola scripture by the Protestant reformers rejected the authority of the Church, and taught their own personal interpretations of scripture, so I don’t agree with Protestants who compare themselves with Bereans.
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bookofpeter
Guest
Looks like a Roman king, about 600BC, discovered and believed the books of Moses therefore stopping their making images of their gods and giving admiration to the One and only God of Moses. Pagans keeping the second commandment.
I am Christian of no denomination. My wonderful wife is Catholic.
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bookofpeter
Guest
. Ten Commandments
The Ten Words, Decalogue, Ten Commandments.
This is what it’s all about!!
These are rules of God for one’s own protection from demons and to allow us to be good enough to have a relationship with God, and make it to the new kingdom.
Man was aware of them before Moses, but his written account is our first concise documentation.
Rule number one, the first four commandments, our relationship with our Creator.
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
Rule number two: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ - is the next six Commandments, the image of God. What we do to our neighbor we are doing to God.
“…For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’…… Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’” (Matthew)
Ten Rules! How simple! Notice what is missing? “The commandments of man”: Gluttony, drinking alcohol, tobacco use and many more. These are undesirable human habits BUT they are not sins = the breaking of any of the Ten Commandments.
“Listen very carefully and comprehend: It is not what goes into the mouth of a man that makes him unclean and defiled, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles man….whatever comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and this is what makes a man unclean and defiles …Do you not understand that whatever goes into the mouth passes through the body and back to the earth… but out of the heart come evil thoughts such as murder, adultery, sexual vice, theft, false witnessing, slander, and irreverent speech.” (Matthew 15)
The Ten Words, Decalogue, Ten Commandments.
This is what it’s all about!!
These are rules of God for one’s own protection from demons and to allow us to be good enough to have a relationship with God, and make it to the new kingdom.
Man was aware of them before Moses, but his written account is our first concise documentation.
Rule number one, the first four commandments, our relationship with our Creator.
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
Rule number two: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ - is the next six Commandments, the image of God. What we do to our neighbor we are doing to God.
“…For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’…… Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’” (Matthew)
Ten Rules! How simple! Notice what is missing? “The commandments of man”: Gluttony, drinking alcohol, tobacco use and many more. These are undesirable human habits BUT they are not sins = the breaking of any of the Ten Commandments.
“Listen very carefully and comprehend: It is not what goes into the mouth of a man that makes him unclean and defiled, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles man….whatever comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and this is what makes a man unclean and defiles …Do you not understand that whatever goes into the mouth passes through the body and back to the earth… but out of the heart come evil thoughts such as murder, adultery, sexual vice, theft, false witnessing, slander, and irreverent speech.” (Matthew 15)
po18guy
Well-known member
Are you alleging, by your own authority, that gluttony, and potentially, drunkenness, are not sins? I said “potentially.”
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DLG123
Guest
This is because they looked as their “graven images” as vessels for their different gods, same with almost all of the cultures of this time period.
Peace
DLG
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runningdude
Guest
When you think about it, the commandment against statuesque idols is only the tip of the iceberg.
Its easy to see how worshiping a statue is futile, but a lot of religions, especially the modern ‘religions’ currently in fashion, worship “natural spirits”, “spiritual energies”, or “gods/goddesses” that are equally non-existent. But without a concrete idol, the ridiculousness of worshiping these ideas is not as immediately apparent.
With a statue of Mary or Saint Joseph, or a stained glass window portraying Saint Patrick, we’re memorializing an actual person who existed, contributed to human existence, and in fact, continue to offer prayers for humanity!
It is no different really, then naming the Cub’s baseball stadium after William Wrigley Jr (though his posthumous contributions are probably limited to ocassional sticky surprise under the church pews…).
However, the First (or Second) Commandment is not against building memorials to our predecessors - it is against building tributes and directing our energy to worshipping things that never existed!
Its easy to see how worshiping a statue is futile, but a lot of religions, especially the modern ‘religions’ currently in fashion, worship “natural spirits”, “spiritual energies”, or “gods/goddesses” that are equally non-existent. But without a concrete idol, the ridiculousness of worshiping these ideas is not as immediately apparent.
With a statue of Mary or Saint Joseph, or a stained glass window portraying Saint Patrick, we’re memorializing an actual person who existed, contributed to human existence, and in fact, continue to offer prayers for humanity!
It is no different really, then naming the Cub’s baseball stadium after William Wrigley Jr (though his posthumous contributions are probably limited to ocassional sticky surprise under the church pews…).
However, the First (or Second) Commandment is not against building memorials to our predecessors - it is against building tributes and directing our energy to worshipping things that never existed!
B
bookofpeter
Guest
God only gave us Ten Commandments and Christ reconfirmed the exact same Ten.
A “sin” is committed by breaking one or more of God’s commandments, which we all break.
“If you keep these you will be blessed – if you break them you will be cursed.”
I totally personally agree by my own authority that over eating and over drinking are unacceptable and bad particularly in the age of operating cars and equipment. (Proverbs 23:29, 23:20, Romans 13:13, Ephesians 5:18,….)
But – I have not found eating and drinking in any of the Big Ten.
It is therefore referred to as “commandments of men.”
“For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and you say, He has a devil. The Son of man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” (Luke 7:33-34 KJV)
God Bless
C
ChatNoir
Guest
Thank you everyone for your comments. I never thought this question would generate so much debate! I will add that as a Sicilian American, using the Blessed Mother in parades is a tribute to honor her and the money is used for the church, not for profit. I don’t get the connection of superstition - Italians aren’t superstitious regarding the Blessed Mother, nor is it used in that way. Perhaps the poster was thinking of the “evil eye,” Italian horn, etc. Thank you.
Laura
Laura
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Roy5
Guest
Code:
Different perceptions, which is fine, As for me, seeing a statue of Mary coming down a street, a priest walking before it, with many crossing themselves as it passes, a statue brimming with American currency - well, I find that offensive. It can seem even commercial, Yet, I also know that it is primarily a cultural tradition, and try to avoid judging. However, it strikes me as a relic of medieval times when superstition was rampant.
Is it at Loredo - my memory is shaky - that tradition says the Holy Family home from Nazareth now sits, carried by angels from the Holy Land to Italy, when shepherds saw the Holy Family as it was on its way?! It's such fantasies which the faithful believed 500 years ago that can insult the modern mind.
I understand that only a small percentage of Italians now attend Mass. The Church has to jettison some of these traditions that make the Church look irrelevant in our age. I respect the fact that earlier generations, without the benefit of modern science, without decent telescopes and no microscopes, believed in demons and such, but now we live in the 21st century and we need to adjust.
By the way, most of us probably have some Italian ancestry as the Romans certainly got around during the days of their mighty empire. That empire fell 1500 years ago and we don't need to pattern ourselves after customs of that time. Whenever I see a parade of all-male bishops and others in their long and often ornate robes walking down the aisle of an ornate cathedral I have to wonder. There is room for continuity in many respects, but isn't it overdone?
I've already raised issues about the Ten Commandments. Basically, they are in large part commendable, but they do present problems. If stealing always is wrong, we certainly need to abolish the CIA among other agencies that engage in clandestine spying. If killing is wrong, I would have to recommend absolute pacifism. However, other parts of the Torah seem to justify spying (e. g., when Moses sent spies into the Holy Land) and certainly encouraged war. Much of OT history is about the God-ordered murder of whole tribes whose land the Hebrew invaders had been 'given' them by God. Can any reasonable person believe that God is so blood-thirsty, destructive, and ready to snuff out people of others faiths and ethnicities? I don't think so.
May the Lord bless those of every creed, color, culture and country.- Status