The three

[hasantas]

We believe in on God in three distinct persons and each person is perfect God.

My question is where does this “trinity” and distinction exist? In essence?

If yes, How can God be simple?

If no, How can it be one God?

There is no an obvious verse in Gospels about Trinity but only some terms like “Father said” or “Son of God said or did”. If you put God instead Father and put Messenger or Prophet instead Son than problem is solved. There would not be need to produce such difficult things to prove doctrine.

 

[Amandil]

There is no an obvious verse in Gospels about Trinity but only some terms like “Father said” or “Son of God said or did”.

The Sanhedrin point blank asked Him, “Are you the Son of God?” and Jesus answered that He was.

They attempted to stone Him prior to this because He said that He was the Son of God (I.e. God)

“It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy, because you, a man, make yourself God.”(John 10:33).

hasantas:

If you put God instead Father and put Messenger or Prophet instead Son than problem is solved. There would not be need to produce such difficult things to prove doctrine.

This displays a fundamental problem with interpretation: separating interpretation from your preconceived beliefs.

That may be what you’d like “Father” to mean or “Son” to mean, but what you want them to mean so as to support your beliefs is irrelevant.

Interpretation is about what the authors meant by what they wrote, not what you mean by what they wrote.

Therefore the Gospels, as well as the whole of the Bible, cannot be read apart from the mind and the tradition from which it came.

The Apostles proclaimed the Trinity when they baptized, which was precisely the way they learned from Christ to baptize: in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Servant19]

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I personally am of the conviction that the only simple way of looking at this is by envisaging the sun, it’s rays, and the mirror, representing the Father, the Word and the human temple of the Word respectively

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[javid]

God is not reducible to even and odd integers or quantities. So there is no contradiction when the Church says, “the Father is God,” and, “Jesus is God,” or, “the Holy Spirit is God.”

There is no “when” or “when not” in God or eternity. The doctrine of the Trinity is not based on Modalism (or Sabellanism).

Dear Amandil

It is impossible for One simple being, to be equal to 2 distinct things. When james is not John, A person can’t be John while he is James.

The same way that a duck begets a duck.

The Father eternally begets the Son; they are both in one essence(or nature)God, both have the same nature, but are distinct persons.

In you example, we will have two ducks! But God is one.

You said: “both have the same nature, but are distinct persons.” The peroblem is: Wher are these distinct persons? in Essnce or out of it?

 

[javid]

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I personally am of the conviction that the only simple way of looking at this is by envisaging the sun, it’s rays, and the mirror, representing the Father, the Word and the human temple of the Word respectively

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Dear Servant19

Do reflection of the sun, have same nature with the sun?

 

[Servant19]

Dear Servant19

Do reflection of the sun, have same nature with the sun?

Hello javid, good question.

Please note, I try to be humble, I do not know these things for sure, all I can provide is my understanding after exploring these concepts according to several religious traditions and Writings.

The Ray is not the Sun, in fact the Ray is basically nothing in relation to the magnificent essential attributes of the Sun. But, all that is good and wholesome in the Sun is found in the Ray. Whether you define “good and wholesome” as being “nature” or “essence” or “substance” is variable across many religions, but I would just use the words “good and wholesome”

Hope that helps

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[lmelahn]

We believe in on God in three distinct persons and each person is perfect God.

My question is where does this “trinity” and distinction exist? In essence?

If yes, How can God be simple?

If no, How can it be one God?

This is the question that that Church grappled with in the third and fourth centuries.

The Persons of the Trinity are distinct only in the relations of origin between them, and not in the Divine Essence. You are correct in saying that, if there were any (real) distinctions whatsoever within the Divine Essence, then there would be composition in God, which is impossible.

The Persons are, however, really distinct from one another, and it is thanks to their four mutual relations of origin: Fatherhood and Sonship; and spiration (on the part of the Father and Son) and procession (on the part of the Holy Spirit).

However, there is no distinction between Person and Essence. The Father is wholly and fully God; the Son is wholly and fully God, and the Holy Spirit is wholly and fully God. They do not “divide” the Divine Essence among them, but possess it fully and completely.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Dear Charlemagne

God is simple, and we can’t imagine several parts in God, as there are in stem of clove

There are no parts in a clover. The stem and the three leafs together are all one clover.

 

[Seraphim73]

There is no an obvious verse in Gospels about Trinity but only some terms like “Father said” or “Son of God said or did”. If you put God instead Father and put Messenger or Prophet instead Son than problem is solved. There would not be need to produce such difficult things to prove doctrine.

Have you read the Scriptures?

 

[lmelahn]

There are no parts in a clover. The stem and the three leafs together are all one clover.

The problem is that, whereas each Person is perfectly identical to the Divine Essence, we cannot say the same about each leaf of the clover. (The leaf is not the same as the clover, but rather is a portion of it.)

It simply is important to keep in mind that following the clover analogy too closely would result in an erroneous understanding of the Trinity.

 

[Servant19]

The problem is that, whereas each Person is perfectly identical to the Divine Essence…

Would you mind sharing where this concept comes from please?

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[lmelahn]

Would you mind sharing where this concept comes from please?.

Sure. Here is the relevant passage from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity” [from the ecumenical Council of Constantinople II held in 553]. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God” [from the local Council of Toledo XI, held in 675]. In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature” (No. 253)

One of the best treatises on the Trinity is the one in St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae. He dedicates an entire article to this very question: I, q. 39, a.1. Here is the corpus of the article:

The truth of this question * is quite clear if we consider the divine simplicity. For it was shown above (Question 3, Article 3*) that the divine simplicity requires that in God essence is the same as “suppositum” *, which in intellectual substances * is nothing else than person.

But a difficulty seems to arise from the fact that while the divine persons are multiplied, the essence nevertheless retains its unity. And because, as Boethius says (De Trin.** 6), “relation multiplies the Trinity of persons,” some have thought that in God essence and person differ, forasmuch as they held the relations to be “adjacent”; considering only in the relations the idea of “reference to another,” and not the relations as realities. [The idea here is simply that, whereas in creatures, a relationship is always an accident, in God, they are the very Substance—an idea already expressed by Augustine. Aquinas is suggesting that some philosophers applied the creaturely notion of “relation” to God without this adaptation.]

But as it was shown above (Question 28, Article 2) in creatures relations are accidental, whereas in God they are the divine essence itself. Thence it follows that in God essence is not really distinct from person; and yet that the persons are really distinguished from each other.

For “person,” as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.

 

[javid]

This is the question that that Church grappled with in the third and fourth centuries.

The Persons of the Trinity are distinct only in the relations of origin between them, and not in the Divine Essence. You are correct in saying that, if there were any (real) distinctions whatsoever within the Divine Essence, then there would be composition in God, which is impossible.

The Persons are, however, really distinct from one another, and it is thanks to their four mutual relations of origin: Fatherhood and Sonship; and spiration (on the part of the Father and Son) and procession (on the part of the Holy Spirit).

However, there is no distinction between Person and Essence. The Father is wholly and fully God; the Son is wholly and fully God, and the Holy Spirit is wholly and fully God. They do not “divide” the Divine Essence among them, but possess it fully and completely.

Dear Imelahn

Thank you

I know there is no distinction between Person and Essence, but as you said The Persons are, however, really distinct from one another, so we have three persons in one God, who are really distinct from one another. So it seems there are three distinct units in God’s Essence. This is my problem.

 

[javid]

There are no parts in a clover. The stem and the three leafs together are all one clover.

Dear Charlemagne

Each person is a perfect God, But each leaf is not a perfect clover:

Clover=three leafs + stem

 

[Aloysium]

We believe in on God in three distinct persons and each person is perfect God.
My question is where does this “trinity” and distinction exist? In essence?
If yes, How can God be simple?
If no, How can it be one God?

The answer as to what is the Trinity is to be found in God Himself.

The clover provides us with a visual representation of three Persons (leafy parts) all one God (stem).
It is a symbol, similar to the use of a name that can direct our thoughts and heart to Him.

These questions can be understood as God calling the seeker, who will not find Him in symbols, analogies, philosophies or theologies, not in any words, but in a loving relationship with God.
What are merely ideas and formulations do guide us, but they will fall by the wayside in the pursuit of Truth.

On the other hand, the skeptic is looking for contradictions, inconsistencies and proofs.
There will never be a satisfactory answer.
And, this approach will demonstrate to him that there is no God.

The academic will be interested in the concept - collecting, comparing and contrasting the various views and explanations, tracing their development.
The reward here for the person’s diligence in seeking answers will be in the nature of a scholarly paper.

The questions and the answers are different depending on their purpose.

 

[lmelahn]

Dear Imelahn

Thank you

I know there is no distinction between Person and Essence, but as you said The Persons are, however, really distinct from one another, so we have three persons in one God, who are really distinct from one another. So it seems there are three distinct units in God’s Essence. This is my problem.

Not three distinct units (as there would be in a clover, say) but three distinct relations of origin.

What distinguishes the Father from the son is His Fatherhood and the Son’s Sonship. What distinguishes the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is the Spiration (on the part of the Father and the Son) and the Procession (on the part of the Holy Spirit).

Because we are talking about supernatural realities, it is impossible to understand them in any way, save by analogy with natural things, but we have to keep in mind that those analogies are very improper: by them we learn much more about what God isn’t than about what He is.

Anyway, we can look at the Trinity like this: the Father’s relation of origin consists in communicating the Divine Essence to the Son. We have to keep in mind, however, that the Divine Essence is utterly one, so it must be communicated wholly and entirely.

That means, among other things, that it is not as if the Father and the Son are members of the same “species”—as is the case between a human father and a human son. Rather, they are perfectly identical in Essence (or Substance): that is why we say in the Creed that the Son is “consubstantial with the Father.”

This communication of the Divine Essence could be compared to the way that the human mind makes concepts and judgments: a sort of likeness to the the thing known is generated in the mind. The difference is that, the only proper object to God’s knowledge is Himself (He knows his creation by means of His Divine Essence); moreover, when God knows HImself, the “concept” he “forms” (not that He actually “produces” a concept as we do) is not just a likeness, but the very Essence itself. So complete is that self-knoweldge, that it is a Person, like the Father.

The only difference between the two Persons is that the Father begets, and the Son is begotten. Everything else, so to speak, is perfectly identical, for it is the very Divine Essence. (It would be better to say, the very Divine Essence is such that the Father begets the Son eternally.)

Similarly, the Father and Son, who know each other so intimately (being the very same Divine Essence) also love each other with a love that we cannot imagine. The way the Eastern Fathers describe it, they “sigh” for each other, and this “breathing” (spiration) results in a second communication of the Divine Essence. In other words, their mutual love is so compelling that it is another Person, the Holy Spirit.

In communicating the Divine Essence to the Son, the Father “loses” nothing; and when the Father communicates the Divine Essence through the Son to the Holy Spirit, neither Father nor Son “lose” anything. The Divine Essence remains utterly simple.

I don’t know if that helped or made it more difficult to understand . If you are curious, you can take a look at St. Thomas Aquinas’ fabulous treatise on the Trinity in I, qq. 27-43Summa theologiae.

 

[RaphaelJ]

Thus the three Persons have the same divine essence which means they are all God because only God can have the same essence as God. What differs is the relationship among the persons. The Father is the only Unbegotten. The Spirit is Begotten of the Father. The Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son (but this is one procession only so proceeding from the Father through the Son is also correct). If one has a hard time understanding the eternal procession then one analogy is to imagine a river flowing eternally from the beginning. The lake is the source like the Father who is unbegotten. The Son is the river flowing from the lake because He is begotten from the Father from all eternity. Likewise for the Holy Spirit.

 

[javid]

The answer as to what is the Trinity is to be found in God Himself.

The clover provides us with a visual representation of three Persons (leafy parts) all one God (stem).
It is a symbol, similar to the use of a name that can direct our thoughts and heart to Him.

These questions can be understood as God calling the seeker, who will not find Him in symbols, analogies, philosophies or theologies, not in any words, but in a loving relationship with God.
What are merely ideas and formulations do guide us, but they will fall by the wayside in the pursuit of Truth.

On the other hand, the skeptic is looking for contradictions, inconsistencies and proofs.
There will never be a satisfactory answer.
And, this approach will demonstrate to him that there is no God.

The academic will be interested in the concept - collecting, comparing and contrasting the various views and explanations, tracing their development.
The reward here for the person’s diligence in seeking answers will be in the nature of a scholarly paper.

The questions and the answers are different depending on their purpose.

Dear Aloysium

About clover, I replied before. about your other words, it is not so clear! Please explain clear.

Best Regards

 

[javid]

Not three distinct units (as there would be in a clover, say) but three distinct relations of origin.

What distinguishes the Father from the son is His Fatherhood and the Son’s Sonship. What distinguishes the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is the Spiration (on the part of the Father and the Son) and the Procession (on the part of the Holy Spirit).

Because we are talking about supernatural realities, it is impossible to understand them in any way, save by analogy with natural things, but we have to keep in mind that those analogies are very improper: by them we learn much more about what God isn’t than about what He is.

Anyway, we can look at the Trinity like this: the Father’s relation of origin consists in communicating the Divine Essence to the Son. We have to keep in mind, however, that the Divine Essence is utterly one, so it must be communicated wholly and entirely.

That means, among other things, that it is not as if the Father and the Son are members of the same “species”—as is the case between a human father and a human son. Rather, they are perfectly identical in Essence (or Substance): that is why we say in the Creed that the Son is “consubstantial with the Father.”

This communication of the Divine Essence could be compared to the way that the human mind makes concepts and judgments: a sort of likeness to the the thing known is generated in the mind. The difference is that, the only proper object to God’s knowledge is Himself (He knows his creation by means of His Divine Essence); moreover, when God knows HImself, the “concept” he “forms” (not that He actually “produces” a concept as we do) is not just a likeness, but the very Essence itself. So complete is that self-knoweldge, that it is a Person, like the Father.

The only difference between the two Persons is that the Father begets, and the Son is begotten. Everything else, so to speak, is perfectly identical, for it is the very Divine Essence. (It would be better to say, the very Divine Essence is such that the Father begets the Son eternally.)

Similarly, the Father and Son, who know each other so intimately (being the very same Divine Essence) also love each other with a love that we cannot imagine. The way the Eastern Fathers describe it, they “sigh” for each other, and this “breathing” (spiration) results in a second communication of the Divine Essence. In other words, their mutual love is so compelling that it is another Person, the Holy Spirit.

In communicating the Divine Essence to the Son, the Father “loses” nothing; and when the Father communicates the Divine Essence through the Son to the Holy Spirit, neither Father nor Son “lose” anything. The Divine Essence remains utterly simple.

I don’t know if that helped or made it more difficult to understand . If you are curious, you can take a look at St. Thomas Aquinas’ fabulous treatise on the Trinity in Summa theologiae I, qq. 27-43.

Dear lmelahn

If persons are three sides of relations, so we have three distinct sides in On God. If first side is not the second side, so God is made of these sides so how can we say God is simple?

 

[javid]

Thus the three Persons have the same divine essence which means they are all God because only God can have the same essence as God. What differs is the relationship among the persons. The Father is the only Unbegotten. The Spirit is Begotten of the Father. The Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son (but this is one procession only so proceeding from the Father through the Son is also correct). If one has a hard time understanding the eternal procession then one analogy is to imagine a river flowing eternally from the beginning. The lake is the source like the Father who is unbegotten. The Son is the river flowing from the lake because He is begotten from the Father from all eternity. Likewise for the Holy Spirit.

Dear Raphael

Our Faith clearly says that "God the Son is not God the Father and God the Father is not God the Son and they are not the Holy Spirit.

So How A Simple God is equal to three distinct persons? When X is a symbol for one number, While X=2, We can’t say X=4

Best Regards.