The Trinity and Islam

[Sister_Amy]

Thats like trying to stay still for as long as you can, but eventually must make a move.

Why must?

so why did god create the universe?

I don’t know. God says in the Qur’an that He created the men and jinn to worship Him. (That doesn’t answer your question though, which is why I said I don’t know.)

 

[AgnosTheist]

Why must?

i was just making a point that remaining dormant for so long is no evidence that the being has no needs that must come later.

I don’t know. God says in the Qur’an that He created the men and jinn to worship Him. (That doesn’t answer your question though, which is why I said I don’t know.)

whats the point of being omnipotent if there is nothing to show for it? doing something is something that God had to do. God needed to act.

 

[inJESUS]

Agnos, with all due respect, could you please move your question to another thread? this is one of the rare threads thar reach so many pages without digressions. Thank you

 

[Sister_Amy]

whats the point of being omnipotent if there is nothing to show for it? doing something is something that God had to do. God needed to act.

Remains to be proven.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Remains to be proven.

already proven by our existence. see, even in your beliefs God requires recognition.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Is your word something separate and beside you?

Muslims constantly take the words “Word” and “Son” literally. Thay are analogies. The capital letters signify a special meaning of Word and Son. God did not have a son in a human sense. God did not have a wife. And Jesus is not a set of characters in a book or a vocalization by God.

This is the muslim misinterpretation of the Trinity. As long as you have this misinterpretation of God, a debate on this topic between Christians and Muslims will not be possible.

For example say we have a piece of fruit. You *say * I think the fruit is an orange yet the piece of fruit is actually an apple and I actually define it as an apple. When I say the fruit is hard with a thin shinny skin you will immediately say no it isn’t; the fruit is soft, juicy with a thick, soft skin. You need to seek out the definition that Christians use for the Trinity rather than imposing your own (or the quran’s) definition in the arguement. Trying to understand what the other person believes and understands is the heart of diologue. Muslims have a hard time of this and place all arguements in the context of the quran.

What it comes down to is if you are using the quran for your definition of the doctrine of the Trinty then your arguement is already flawed. Try to learn what Christians say the Trinity is (not the quran) and then debate that definition.

So Amy, when are you going to convert to Catholicism?

 

[inJESUS]

This is not a creed.

what is it?

The mushaf quite obviously is created.

correct.

The Qur’an is the Word of Allah.

is the Word of Allah created ? no it is uncreated.

No, you repeat after me. The Qur’an is not Allah.

is the Word of Allah uncreated and eternal yet different than Allah? yes or no would do.

And the Qur’an is not Allah. You need to get over this hurdle.

i will when you answer my very simple questions.

 

[Sister_Amy]

already proven by our existence. see, even in your beliefs God requires recognition.

Requires what? But people deny God’s existence.

 

[inJESUS]

Is your word something separate and beside you?

No. Therefore, the Word of Allah is not seperate from Allah since it is as eternal and self-existing as Allah. In other words:

Only Allah is eternal, uncreated, self-existing
His Word is eternal, uncreated, self-existing

therefore Allah and His Word are One.

Do you disagree?

 

[Sister_Amy]

i will when you answer my very simple questions.

Then can we just drop it, since I’m not going to answer and you can’t proceed?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Are you, and your word, one?

 

[StevieD]

I find it hard to understand why a muslim should take the trouble to contradict, in every point, a clear and accurate summary of the (inaccurate) koranic teachings about the Trinity when he must be aware of them. I do not seek islamic answers on this site but Catholic ones. It should be remembered when reading the responses of muslims to religious questions that they are permitted to equivocate in any situation where to do so puts islam at an advantage.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I find it hard to understand why a muslim should take the trouble to contradict, in every point, a clear and accurate summary of the (inaccurate) koranic teachings about the Trinity when he must be aware of them. I do not seek islamic answers on this site but Catholic ones. It should be remembered when reading the responses of muslims to religious questions that they are permitted to equivocate in any situation where to do so puts islam at an advantage.

I beg to differ with you, here–Islam actually condemns lying. You will not find (and I beg you to look for) any serious scholar of Islam who would “equivocate” as you put it, to glorify Islam.

In this thread, AgnosTheist is attempting to prove the logical validity of the trinity–which I am attempting to refute.

Also, inJESUS is attempting to demonstrate a dual nature of God based on the argument that the Qur’an is uncreated, which I am trying to avoid engaging in.

 

[famdigy]

No. Therefore, the Word of Allah is not seperate from Allah since it is as eternal and self-existing as Allah. In other words:

Only Allah is eternal, uncreated, self-existing
His Word is eternal, uncreated, self-existing

therefore Allah and His Word are One.

Do you disagree?

The Qur’an being the uncreated word of God is a concept that ought to be rejected by all Muslims. It’s my belief that this idea was not a teaching of the prophet. It is a thought that crept into Islam via early jewish and Christian converts.

But whether sunnis believe this to be true or not is not relevant here because this is not a main doctrine or fundamental tenant of the faith even if it is not a correct belief. However the idea that God is part of a trinity is fundamental to Christianity whereby if proven incorrect, the entire faith begins to fall apart.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Sister Amy,

I dont think any amount of Logic would make you betray your Islamic belief that Allah has no need of anything. Not even for the benefit of the discussion.

Christians however believe that God has needs:

God in God’s very self is Creator. A Creator needs Creation in order to be a Creator. Without Creation, God could not be God’s self.
sarahlaughed.net/sermons/trinity/index.html

I happen to agree with their assessment, for i see this reality as proof that somebody out there needed to excercise its power.

You cannot accept this evidence, even though you dont have any for yourself. So lets end it here.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The Qur’an being the uncreated word of God is a concept that ought to be rejected by all Muslims. It’s my belief that this idea was not a teaching of the prophet. It is a thought that crept into Islam via early jewish and Christian converts.

But whether sunnis believe this to be true or not is not relevant here because this is not a main doctrine or fundamental tenant of the faith even if it is not a correct belief. However the idea that God is part of a trinity is fundamental to Christianity whereby if proven incorrect, the entire faith begins to fall apart.

I myself don’t think it is a concept that should be rejected by Muslims because it is one which was dealt with by early scholars of the faith. But I don’t think it’s worth bringing up in the discussions of laypeople (like ourselves.) Which is by the way why I have attempted to avoid the discussion… something which is probably really frustrating to inJESUS right now.

There was a sect which developed after Muhammad which began to say that the Qur’an was created. I don’t know why, I don’t really care why, and I don’t know what evidence they used. But I do know that the jurists and scholars of the time and afterwards pretty much unanimously rejected that argument and said that the Qur’an was uncreated. That is the only reason that it appears in books of creed (aqeedah) like Al-Aqidah Al-Wasitiyah by Imam Ibn Taymiyyah and Al-Aqeedah At-Tahaawiyyah, etc.

All the same, I’m happy to end the discussion on the subject, it’s not one I’m particularly keen to debate or defend, and I don’t really see its relevance to the present discussion regarding Trinity.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy,

I dont think any amount of Logic would make you betray your Islamic belief that Allah has no need of anything. Not even for the benefit of the discussion.

Christians however believe that God has needs:

God in God’s very self is Creator. A Creator needs Creation in order to be a Creator. Without Creation, God could not be God’s self.
sarahlaughed.net/sermons/trinity/index.html

I happen to agree with their assessment, for i see this reality as proof that somebody out there needed to excercise its power.

You cannot accept this evidence, even though you dont have any for yourself. So lets end it here.

I accept your defeat, that you do not have sufficient logic to demonstrate your point. So we can end the discussion here.

 

[morning_star777]

mr injesus i hope you have something to say when sister amy had accepted the so called defeat of mr agnos!

 

[StevieD]

I accept your defeat, that you do not have sufficient logic to demonstrate your point. So we can end the discussion here.

Sister Amy (like so many of her co-religionists) doesn’t give up until she tires people out - it’s the only way she can convince herself that her ‘arguments’ are irrefutable. (I will not be reading any response Amy, so save your typing fingers!)

 

[AgnosTheist]

I accept your defeat, that you do not have sufficient logic to demonstrate your point. So we can end the discussion here.

YIKES! alright ALRIGHT! lets continue this.

Let me bring in a new card into the table: since this is in discussion of the Christian God, lets take in the rest of their views of him:

God in God’s very self is Creator. A Creator needs Creation in order to be a Creator. Without Creation, God could not be God’s self.

There. Their God has needs. The logic: If God’s nature is as a Creator, therefore there is a need to Create.

If you have any comments, lets settle it first before we proceed to discussing whether or not God has other needs which only a split personality condition could satisfy.