The Trinity and Islam

[thedavidwilson]

I find it hard to understand why a muslim should take the trouble to contradict, in every point, a clear and accurate summary of the (inaccurate) koranic teachings about the Trinity when he must be aware of them. I do not seek islamic answers on this site but Catholic ones. It should be remembered when reading the responses of muslims to religious questions that they are permitted to equivocate in any situation where to do so puts islam at an advantage.

Or as Muhammed said: “War is deceit”. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268).

In islamic theology there is a constant war between dal al Islam (the house of submission) and dar al harab (the house of war, meaning non-muslims). This was is to go on until islam reigns suppreme and this battle can be faught by any means necessary including deceit.

 

[thedavidwilson]

I beg to differ with you, here–Islam actually condemns lying. You will not find (and I beg you to look for) any serious scholar of Islam who would “equivocate” as you put it, to glorify Islam.

“War is deceit”. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268).

Bukhari is recognized by the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence as the most reliable hadith and a good deal of sharia law is based on it (like killing apostates)

 

[Sister_Amy]

“War is deceit”. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268).

Bukhari is recognized by the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence as the most reliable hadith and a good deal of sharia law is based on it (like killing apostates)

The collection of ahadith, called Saheeh al-Bukhari, is definitely recognized as the most authentic collection of ahadith.

Do you not think that war is deceit? Do people fight a war by being honest with each other? Do you tell your opponent before you ambush him?

But I’m not at war with you.

 

[Sister_Amy]

YIKES! alright ALRIGHT! lets continue this.

ROFL. Whoever above said I was just playing was right… I’m not putting my faith on the line here. And neither, do I think, are you.

Let me bring in a new card into the table: since this is in discussion of the Christian God, lets take in the rest of their views of him:

God in God’s very self is Creator. A Creator needs Creation in order to be a Creator. Without Creation, God could not be God’s self.

Is this all the Christian views of God? I don’t think so. But anyway… where did you get it, and is it an authentic source? And what is it based on?

There. Their God has needs. The logic: If God’s nature is as a Creator, therefore there is a need to Create.

Their God? I’m not convinced that God has needs. I’m also not convinced that Christians (or you, for that matter) are qualified to describe God’s “nature,” in fact I think they don’t know it. (Nor, do I think, does anyone else.)

If you have any comments, lets settle it first before we proceed to discussing whether or not God has other needs which only a split personality condition could satisfy.

Hold up, hold up, hold up!!! You’re saying that God has needs (which I don’t agree with) and that only a split personality would satisfy his needs!?!?! You said that a Creator needs a creation to be a Creator, right? Why does the Creator need to be split personalities? Because He was bored? But if He Created then He wouldn’t be bored. Seriously, I think you’re tying yourself a knot here. Better stop.

 

[thedavidwilson]

But I’m not at war with you.

Again you disagree with 1000 years of islamic scholarship. IN is alm you are part of dar al islam and I am part of dar al harab. You are to fight me until:

*Qur’an:8:39"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”*

Also how, as a muslim, can we trust you when the quran orders you to:

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Amy, are you my friend?

 

[LaMar]

“War is deceit”. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268).

Bukhari is recognized by the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence as the most reliable hadith and a good deal of sharia law is based on it (like killing apostates)

Gee, are we indicting Islam on that front?

“Thou shalt wage war by way of deception” is in the old testament (I think it’s attributed to King David). It’s also a sentiment expressed by Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, Che Guevara, Lord Mountbatten, Mao Tse Tung, Lenin, George Washington (as reported by Bernard Bailyn) and the Catholic monk Baltazar Gracian.

sacred-texts.com/eso/aww/index.htm

Anyone who has ever been to, studied, or casually heard tales of warfare knows this instinctively.

Hope that helps.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Gee, are we indicting Islam on that front?

“Thou shalt wage war by way of deception” is in the old testament (I think it’s attributed to King David). It’s also a sentiment expressed by Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, Che Guevara, Lord Mountbatten, Mao Tse Tung, Lenin, George Washington (as reported by Bernard Bailyn) and the Catholic monk Baltazar Gracian.

sacred-texts.com/eso/aww/index.htm

Anyone who has ever been to, studied, or casually heard tales of warfare knows this instinctively.

Hope that helps.

You will have to talk to Jews about the Old Testament. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament and that is what we believe in.

I am not debating whether war is bad. Yes war is always deceit in some way or another. The difference in islam is that everyone who is not a muslim is an enemy to islam. There is a constant state of war, in islamic theology, between muslims and non-muslims. Even the existence of things that are not muslim is considered an attack on islam. How can we trust muslims to be our friends and engage in honest dialog when they are commanded by the “W(w)ord of Allah” to never take Christians and Jews as friends?

This is one reason why islam is false. God does not trick people into believing into him. We must enter into belief of Him with our own free will. The stance that islam takes with the world denies people this gift. That is why islam is evil. That is why you cannot have an honest debate on the Trinity while you believe in islam.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Again you disagree with 1000 years of islamic scholarship. IN is alm you are part of dar al islam and I am part of dar al harab.

This dar al islam, dar al harb business was not a teaching of Muhammad, not a teaching in the Qur’an, but something that came much later. It’s not an authentic teaching in Islam, nor a valid representation of the world according to Islam. If it were true, then I would have to be fighting people, and they be fighting me. That’s clearly not the case so please get this notion out of your mind. It’s not Islamically justified.

You are to fight me until:

*Qur’an:8:39"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”*Fight who? And Fight why? You must’ve been watching that fitna movie… That verse is actually saying to fight so there is no more persecution and oppression. It’s pretty specific in the Qur’an, applied to a situation the Muslims were in.

Also how, as a muslim, can we trust you when the quran orders you to:

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Amy, are you my friend?

Actually, that verse doesn’t say “friends,” but in fact it says “allies.” Don’t take Jews/Christians as allies against the Muslims. Which I’m not doing. It doesn’t say anything about not being allowed to be friends. In fact, the Qur’an in 60:8 describes friendship with non-Muslims. So sure, I’ll be your friend. Unless you want to be at war?

 

[thedavidwilson]

Is this all the Christian views of God? I don’t think so. But anyway… where did you get it, and is it an authentic source? And what is it based on?

Their God? I’m not convinced that God has needs. I’m also not convinced that Christians (or you, for that matter) are qualified to describe God’s “nature,” in fact I think they don’t know it. (Nor, do I think, does anyone else.)

Doesn’t God need to be infinite, eternal?

Perhaps you are prescribing human needs to God which is one way muslims misinterpret Christian theology.

Why not think of it as the definition of God needs certain things otherwise he would not be God.

God needs to be defined as infinite, eternal or this definition would not be God.

The definition of an act of Love (in the godly sense) needs to have two parties involved.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes war is always deceit in some way or another. The difference in islam is that everyone who is not a muslim is an enemy to islam.

Not true. See 60:8.

There is a constant state of war, in islamic theology, between muslims and non-muslims.

There is not. Again, see 60:8. And while you’re at it, see 2:256.

Even the existence of things that are not muslim is considered an attack on islam.

Also not true.

How can we trust muslims to be our friends and engage in honest dialog when they are commanded by the “W(w)ord of Allah” to never take Christians and Jews as friends?

See 60:8.

That is why you cannot have an honest debate on the Trinity while you believe in islam.

Is it a dishonest debate then? Why don’t you join it, and try proving the Trinity without the Bible… because how can we expect God to make us believe in something that doesn’t make sense instinctively?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Doesn’t God need to be infinite, eternal?

Perhaps you are prescribing human needs to God which is one way muslims misinterpret Christian theology.

Why not think of it as the definition of God needs certain things otherwise he would not be God.

God needs to be defined as infinite, eternal or this definition would not be God.

The definition of an act of Love (in the godly sense) needs to have two parties involved.

Who gets to define God? If you get to, then I should get to. How can you say God needs this or needs that? I think what you mean is that your understanding of God needs this, or needs that.

Glorified is God Almighty, and He knows best.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Actually, that verse doesn’t say “friends,” but in fact it says “allies.” Don’t take Jews/Christians as allies against the Muslims. Which I’m not doing. It doesn’t say anything about not being allowed to be friends. In fact, the Qur’an in 60:8 describes friendship with non-Muslims. So sure, I’ll be your friend. Unless you want to be at war?

Hmmm…let’s look at multiple tranlastions of that verse and in context:

005.050
YUSUFALI: Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?
PICKTHAL: Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)?
SHAKIR: Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians* for friends*. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

005.052
YUSUFALI: Those in whose hearts is a disease - thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: “We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster.” Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.
PICKTHAL: And thou seest those in whose heart is a disease race toward them, saying: We fear lest a change of fortune befall us. And it may happen that Allah will vouchsafe (unto thee) the victory, or a commandment from His presence. Then will they repent them of their secret thoughts.
SHAKIR: But you will see those in whose hearts is a disease hastening towards them, saying: We fear lest a calamity should befall us; but it may be that Allah will bring the victory or a punish ment from Himself, so that they shall be regretting on account of what they hid in their souls.

005.053
YUSUFALI: And those who believe will say: “Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah, that they were with you?” All that they do will be in vain, and they will fall into (nothing but) ruin.
PICKTHAL: Then will the believers say (unto the people of the Scripture): are these they who swore by Allah their most binding oaths that they were surely with you? Their works have failed, and they have become the losers.
SHAKIR: And those who believe will say: Are these they who swore by Allah with the most forcible of their oaths that they were most surely with you? Their deeds shall go for nothing, so they shall become losers.

005.054
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Whoso of you becometh a renegade from his religion, (know that in his stead) Allah will bring a people whom He loveth and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He giveth unto whom He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah’s way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah’s Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

And in this verse “allah” instructs muslims who they can only take as friends:

005.055
YUSUFALI: Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
PICKTHAL: Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).
SHAKIR: Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

***Looks pretty specific to me. But I am just a poor ignorant kuffir so what do I know. ***

 

[thedavidwilson]

Glorified is God Almighty, and He knows best.

How do you know God is Almighty?
How do you know He knows best?

You are applying your definition to God. What are you basing that on?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well you could read my post and the verses I referenced, or you could keep on spouting what you have before.

I don’t think anyone will be impressed though. Certainly not myself.

 

[LaMar]

How do you know God is Almighty?
How do you know He knows best?

You are applying your definition to God. What are you basing that on?

Simple logic.

The definition of G-d is that He is almighty. If He didn’t know best, He wouldn’t be G-d.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Not true. See 60:8.

There is not. Again, see 60:8. And while you’re at it, see 2:256.

Also not true.

See 60:8.

Is it a dishonest debate then? Why don’t you join it, and try proving the Trinity without the Bible… because how can we expect God to make us believe in something that doesn’t make sense instinctively?

Perhaps you could school us on the concept of aborgation in islam.

Can you prove Muhammed is a prophet without the quran? Somethings are revealed. Is loving your neighbor instinctive? No. As humans our instinct is to dominate our neighbor. It took God coming to earth and sacrificing Himself on the cross to reveal to us what love is: giving oneself completely to another without expecting any gain.

Like I posted 15 pages ago, what this is coming down to is the validity of the bible. What is the islamic proof that the bible is corrupt other than someone (i.e. in the quran) saying it is. Where is the critical textual evidence that is was corrupted?

 

[famdigy]

God in God’s very self is Creator. A Creator needs Creation in order to be a Creator. Without Creation, God could not be God’s self.

There. Their God has needs. The logic: If God’s nature is as a Creator, therefore there is a need to Create.

“God in God’s very self” is not creator, rather the attribute of “Creator” is an additional attribute to God’s self. The only attributes of His essence that qualify as being “God’s very self” are those attributes whose opposite cannot be applied. To elaborate further I can say:
“The Everliving” - there was never a time where God did not live
“The All knowing” - there was never a time where God did not know.

Those two attributes above qualify as being “God’s self”. Because I can not apply their opposite to Him such as lack of life and lack of knowledge. On the other hand I can say:
God created me, but did **not **create for me a sibling.
God Blessed Susan with good health, but did **not **bless Jerry with the same. The attributes which I can apply the opposite are classified as being additional attributes to God’s self and not “God’s very self”

Here’s an example:
“Susan is a runner, she’s been running for over 20 years”, running is not Susan’s self, its an additional attribute she earned.

Likewise, “Creator” is not God’s self, it is an additional attribute.

The Christian logic of God needing to create because he is creator is not logical at all because it assumes God created in the first place in order to be “himself”. In other words, the main motive behind creation is just so that God can add to his collection the title of “creator”. It assumes he is lacking in his essence or “his self” without the creation.

That is not a correct belief. God being creator is not an attribute of “God’s self”. God is free from any and all “need”

 

[Sister_Amy]

Subhaanallaah…

 

[inJESUS]

Are you, and your word, one?

of course. Do you think we make 2 different entities/things?

 

[inJESUS]

Then can we just drop it, since I’m not going to answer and you can’t proceed?

you join all arguments related to Islam. Why are you dropping this argument when it is an Islamic belief? you care about what to wear and how many Muslims bow down at the same yet you do not want to discuss a theological debate that explains to you not only your Islamic belief, but what you used to not understand about the Trinity?