The Trinity and Islam

  • Thread starter Thread starter scapularkid8
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
5pintLutheran said:
You are verily mistaken my friend. Jesus Christ was not the servant and messenger of Allah, b/c Allah is a false god, and I’ll prove it to you (hopefully you’ve read this in another post):
  1. Moon worship has been practiced in Arabia since 2000 BC. The crescent moon is the most common symbol of this pagan moon worship as far back as 2000 BC.
  2. In Mecca, there was a god named Hubal who was Lord of the Kabah. This Hubal was a moon god.
  3. One Muslim apologist confessed that the idol of moon god Hubal was placed upon the roof of the Kaba about 400 years before Muhammad. This may in fact be the origin of why the crescent moon is on top of every minaret at the Kaba today and the central symbol of Islam atop of every mosque throughout the world:
    “About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one Amr bin Lahyo … a descendant of Qahtan and king of Hijaz, had put an idol called Hubal on the roof of the Kaba. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraish before Islam.” (Muhammad The Holy Prophet, Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar (Pakistan), p 18-19, Muslim)
  4. The moon god was also referred to as “al-ilah”. This is not a proper name of a single specific god, but a generic reference meaning “the god”. Each local pagan Arab tribe would refer to their own local tribal pagan god as “al-ilah”.
  5. “al-ilah” was later shortened to Allah before Muhammad began promoting his new monotheistic religion in 610 AD, which he learned from Christians and other monotheists of that day.
  6. There is evidence that Hubal was referred to as “Allah”.
  7. When Muhammad came along, he dropped all references to the name “Hubal” but retained the generic “Allah”.
  8. Muhammad retained almost all the pagan rituals of the Arabs at the Kaba and redefined them in monotheistic terms.
  9. Regardless of the specifics of the facts, it is clear that Islam is derived from paganism that once worshiped a moon-god. Although Islam is today a monotheist religion, its roots are in paganism.
Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat (“the Goddess”), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah (“the Mighty”), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Talf and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad and that they believed had come from the moon.

In conclusion, my friend… Other relgions know about God, but we as Christians KNOW God (Jesus Christ).👍
Click to expand...
Your post is not correct. Islam abolished all types of pagan worship. We never had a moon god. But you do have a sun day and a moon day, obvious reference to the pagan greek and Roman gods. Your christmas is also a clear ritual to observe the worship of some sun festival.

I am sur eyou have statues of Mary in your churches. Are you allowed to have statues?? You have no real religion and you have proceeded to comment on other’s faiths. There is no real substance in your post. Thanks however.
 
InJesus,
I think what Planten is going on about with the days of the week named after Roman pagan Gods. My friend (who is muslim) was telling me about the origin of the days of the week, and they (muslims) believe cause we named them after pagan Gods, Christianity must be pagan from origin (or something along those lines).
I personally laughed when i heard this.
 
dolphinlove said:
InJesus,
I think what Planten is going on about with the days of the week named after Roman pagan Gods. My friend (who is muslim) was telling me about the origin of the days of the week, and they (muslims) believe cause we named them after pagan Gods, Christianity must be pagan from origin (or something along those lines).
I personally laughed when i heard this.
Click to expand...
It is high time someone told planten the bitter truth: not every European language names the days of the week after pagan gods! For instance, the Greek has Kiriaki (the day of the Lord) instead of the English “Sunday.” These namings in different languages have nothing to do with Christianity 😃
 
Angelos said:
It is high time someone told planten the bitter truth: not every European language names the days of the week after pagan gods! For instance, the Greek has Kiriaki (the day of the Lord) instead of the English “Sunday.” These namings in different languages have nothing to do with Christianity 😃
Click to expand...
I really feel sorry for Planten.
With the teachings he/she gets from "try to prove Christianity wrong’ classes are just not paying off. The misguided information they are relaying to him/her is not accurate, when he/she thinks they have a good argument, only to be shot down in flames once again.
I give him/her browny points for trying. 😉
 
:hmmm:
planten said:
Your post is not correct. Islam abolished all types of pagan worship. We never had a moon god. But you do have a sun day and a moon day, obvious reference to the pagan greek and Roman gods. Your christmas is also a clear ritual to observe the worship of some sun festival.

I am sur eyou have statues of Mary in your churches. Are you allowed to have statues?? You have no real religion and you have proceeded to comment on other’s faiths. There is no real substance in your post. Thanks however.
Click to expand...
First off, I’m not Catholic, so we don’t have statues of Mary or Jesus in our Churches, which I would like to have. Even if we did, it doesn’t mean that we worship these statues, b/c that would be idolatry, and that is a grave sin.

Just b/c ancient Rome had big influences on the way our western culture functions today, doesn’t mean that we are all Pagans and devil worshipers, :bowdown:. If that’s the case, then that big black stone in Mecca you bow down to and pray to is idolatry. If I may ask… If the symbols atop many of the buildings around Mecca aren’t for the moon god, then what are they there for?

To say that you never had a moon god is false, and either you’re playing ignorant or just don’t know your history. The practice of naming the seven days after the ten known “planets” goes back to Babylonian or Egyptian times and was adopted by Greeks and Romans, which then spread to arab countries, who adapted their own names for the 7 weekdays.

Even if muslims don’t use the same names for the 7 “pagan” days of the week, they still use the structure that there are 7 days: yaum al-ahad, yaum al-ithnayn, yaum ath-thulaathaa’, yaum al-arbiaaa', yaum al-khamis, yaum al-jumua, and yaum as-sabt. Count them… 7.

Christmas is our day to celebrate the coming of the messiah, Jesus Christ. It is his birth day. Some people say that it’s not his literal birth day, but many scholars do. We do not worship the Sun on this day, but in a small form we do worship the SON. We exchange gifts, say prayers, and give thanks to God with hymns, eating, and giving to others. It’s one of my favorite times of the year, when people stop thinking about themselves for a minute, and start thinking about others.

I have no real religion… :hmmm: Hmm… I disagree with you sir. You scoffed at me b/c you thought I was “insulting” Islam, I wasn’t. In my other post, I was merely stating facts that I’ve gathered from scholarly sources… muslim and western, from studying Islam and it’s origins. Maybe you should do the same for Christianity. Do some study without a biased view that we Christians are “devil-worshipers, pagans, and not very nice people” and you will see that we have more substance, and evidence for our faith than many percieve. 👍
 
dolphinlove said:
I really feel sorry for Planten.
With the teachings he/she gets from "try to prove Christianity wrong’ classes are just not paying off. The misguided information they are relaying to him/her is not accurate, when he/she thinks they have a good argument, only to be shot down in flames once again.
I give him/her browny points for trying. 😉
Click to expand...
Nobody is teaching me anything. I just observe the Sun Day and Mon day and Sontag montag. They are meaningful names after some dieties.

I do not intend to prove christianity wrong. But when compared to the sublime clear pure Islamic faith, I find that christianity needs to learn some good points from Islam.
  1. Prophets were sent to all nations of the word with the messages from God.
  2. There is no compulsion in the matters of (any) religion. All persons should be free to belief what they like and pray as they like. No hinderance.
  3. The religious places of any religion should be protected by all people. They should not be attacked or desecrated.
  4. The Love of the Lord, the Creator should be the mission of all religions and all religions should preach for peace in the world.
  5. There should be internal harmony among the followers of all relgions and some kind of unity to promote coridal relations.
  6. The senior memebrs (prophets) of other nations should not be abused or dis-respected. There is no need to believe in the other religions. But it is necessary that the members should not be abused and calld devils.
  7. Let every religion preach its own good points to the world and prove them. But no one should speak against any points of other religions. I mean, let every one praise his own religion with quotes from their own original book. But let not any one bring up the bad points of other religions.
If you agree / disagree to any of these then please let me know. I am ready to learn from you. Thanks.
 
planten said:
  1. There is no compulsion in the matters of (any) religion. All persons should be free to belief what they like and pray as they like. No hinderance.
  2. The Love of the Lord, the Creator should be the mission of all religions and all religions should preach for peace in the world.
Click to expand...
Contradiction right there. Not every religion believes in God, or a god for that matter. I agree that all religions should be bearers of love and peace, but, that is just not how all religions are. Some are actually evil and delight in wickedness, such as Satanism. Besides, you’d have to force a believer of another religion to take part in that world mission - and believers are not afraid to die for their faith and practices.
 
It’s interesting that Mohammed got his information about the Trinity from the Jews. Or at least from people who had no clue what the Trinity was. Maybe the angel who visited him got it wrong? Who knows. Wherver or whoever he got the information from, he got it wrong - dead wrong. To clear up the smoke:

We believe in One God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not three seperate Gods. God is not thrice. God is Triune. He is One God. One God with three Persons. A Person is not a human, nor a creature, nor a demi-god, but is a Reality. (It takes a bit of philosophy to understand what “Reality” means; unfortunately, I don’t have that kind of philosophical knowledge, so I can’t explain it - but you’re free to research it). God has One Nature - One Divnity. He is One. And he has Three Persons - Three Realities. Thus, he is Triune. One God with Three Persons, Three Persons in One God.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, because God is One, each share in the Divnity. Thus, God is the Father, and he is the Son, and he is the Holy Spirit. So, the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. This is why Catholics sometimes say “God the Father” or “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit” - it means God is One in Nature, thrice in Reality; it acknowledges that each of the three Persons share in the One Divinity. This is also why Catholics say “the Son of God” or “the Spirit of God”. And it is why Catholics say “the Father is the Son, the Son is the Father, and the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit”.

The three Persons’ relationship in God is that they are distinct in themselves, i.e., the Father is not the same Person as the Son, nor is the Son the same Person as the Father, nor is the Father and the Son the same Person as the Holy Spirit. Each of the three Realities are distinct. But! They each share in the Divinity, because they are each a Divine Person, i.e., no one Person dose not belong to God. In other words, the three Persons are all in God - neither one of them is outside of God; if one of them was, than they could not share in the Divinity. Now, because they each share in the Divinity, they are all equal. God is not above himself - nothing is above God. He is the Absolute. So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal in glory, eternity, and power; they each share in the attributes of God. No Person is above or before the other, nor is one Person below or after the other. God cannot come before God, nor be above God, nor below God, nor after God; God is God, and there is no other God besides God. The three Realites share in the One Nature, so they’re co-equal (remember, God is Triune).

Now, someone might say, “But the Son is begotten of the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, so wouldn’t the Son be below the Father and the Spirit below both of them?” No, because “begotten” and “proceeding” are human terms that describe something we cannot fully understand. At best, they tell us the relationship of the Father to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Father and the Son to the Holy Spirit. At worst, they are philosophical terms, not biological terms (for example, a father begetting a son), so you have to really dig into philosophy to understand what Christianity means by “begotten” and “proceeding”. Again, I’m not a philosopher, so I cannot fully describe them, but you’re free to research them yourself.
 
planten said:
Nobody is teaching me anything. I just observe the Sun Day and Mon day and Sontag montag. They are meaningful names after some dieties.

so why link them to Christianity? you know that even muslims use these names.
Click to expand...
 
planten said:
I do not intend to prove christianity wrong. But when compared to the sublime clear pure Islamic faith, I find that christianity needs to learn some good points from Islam.
  1. Prophets were sent to all nations of the word with the messages from God.
  2. There is no compulsion in the matters of (any) religion. All persons should be free to belief what they like and pray as they like. No hinderance.
  3. The religious places of any religion should be protected by all people. They should not be attacked or desecrated.
  4. Let every religion preach its own good points to the world and prove them. But no one should speak against any points of other religions. I mean, let every one praise his own religion with quotes from their own original book. But let not any one bring up the bad points of other religions.
If you agree / disagree to any of these then please let me know. I am ready to learn from you. Thanks.
Click to expand...
**1. **Was Socrates a prophet sent to Greeks? Was Buddha a prophet sent to China? Could you please give me the name of the prophet sent to the Russians?

2. No to hindrance, but yes to the Koran verse commanding Muslims to fight and humiliate non-Muslims only because they do not turn to Islam! What a beautiful contradiction!

3. Is this why Mohammad’s army destroyed the idols of Meccan people in Kaaba? Is this why Muslim armies turned churches into mosques in the countries they conquered? Is this why Muslims covered the beautiful frescoes and mosaics of the saints with plaster in Hagia Sophia?

7. The Bible says nothing about Islam, which always slanders Jews and Christians and mocks their faith. Dear planten, please go back in time and give your advice to the writers of the Koran. This will be much appreciated.

peace to you 🙂
 
Angelos said:
**1. **Was Socrates a prophet sent to Greeks? Was Buddha a prophet sent to China? Could you please give me the name of the prophet sent to the Russians?

2. No to hindrance, but yes to the Koran verse commanding Muslims to fight and humiliate non-Muslims only because they do not turn to Islam! What a beautiful contradiction!

3. Is this why Mohammad’s army destroyed the idols of Meccan people in Kaaba? Is this why Muslim armies turned churches into mosques in the countries they conquered? Is this why Muslims covered the beautiful frescoes and mosaics of the saints with plaster in Hagia Sophia?

7. The Bible says nothing about Islam, which always slanders Jews and Christians and mocks their faith. Dear planten, please go back in time and give your advice to the writers of the Koran. This will be much appreciated.

peace to you 🙂
Click to expand...
Angelos :hug1: :blessyou:

I will give my response later, ive had a busy day and im too tired to think straight and will give a silly answer.
 
dolphinlove said:
Angelos :hug1: :blessyou:

I will give my response later, ive had a busy day and im too tired to think straight and will give a silly answer.
Click to expand...
Dolphinlove :hug1:

I am positive you are going to post a wonderful response again 👍
 
Angelos said:
Dolphinlove :hug1:

I am positive you are going to post a wonderful response again 👍
Click to expand...
Im improving, im keeping my sarcasm at bay and actually thinking with responses now… think it is making a difference… :o
 
Angelos said:
It is high time someone told planten the bitter truth: not every European language names the days of the week after pagan gods! For instance, the Greek has Kiriaki (the day of the Lord) instead of the English “Sunday.” These namings in different languages have nothing to do with Christianity 😃
Click to expand...
Dear Angelos,

Christian in Indonesia use :

Minggu, Senin, Selasa, Rabu, Kamis, Jumat, Sabtu which means respectively as :
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

Perhaps Planten means that the Christian in Indonesia is not pagan compared to most the westerners (english speaking, Dutch and Germans)?? I wonder the name of the days in Danish or Finnish.

Just kidding…😃
 
swariffin said:
Dear Angelos,

Christian in Indonesia use :

Minggu, Senin, Selasa, Rabu, Kamis, Jumat, Sabtu which means respectively as :
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

Perhaps Planten means that the Christian in Indonesia is not pagan compared to most the westerners (english speaking, Dutch and Germans)?? I wonder the name of the days in Danish or Finnish.

Just kidding…😃
Click to expand...
😃 😃 😃
 
Even if muslims don’t use the same names for the 7 “pagan” days of the week, they still use the structure that there are 7 days: yaum al-ahad, yaum al-ithnayn, yaum ath-thulaathaa’, yaum al-arbiaaa', yaum al-khamis, yaum al-jumua, and yaum as-sabt. Count them… 7.👍
 
Rayaan said:
it is true, Muslims simply don’t get the Trinity…

As a Muslims our belief is one of complete monotheism.

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, we live and die by this one ultimate belief and that submission to the one true God is the only path to salvation…

Many Muslims view Christians who believe in the Trinity as Polytheists (something which is very bad in Islam)

We see the christian belief that Jesus is God or Gods son as complete blasphemy, we don’t understand it, we don’t get why and how Jesus is the son of God OR God himself OR why God would want Jesus killed/punished/crucified, OR why Jesus’s death/pain would eradicate the sins of any other human…

Im sure this is a two way process where you feel the same about islam, but these are some of the main exceptions that Muslims have about Christianity/Trinity
Click to expand...
Not only Muslims feel this way I don’t “get it” also I know the Jehovah Witness do not teach or believe in the Trinity either.

I tried to understand it a couple of times and ways, I asked a Priest once and he explained it to me in 2 different examples.

I still did not comprehend it and that point he seemed annoyed, however polite, and he told me I just had to believe and not question God.

😊
well…
:cool: ummm who the holy spirit his son or God himself? blah…either way not here too argue about it I won’t get it either just mentioning other people and groups who don’t get it either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top