The True Creation Story

[Wesrock]

I do not recall open attacks on this thread.

What is important in this thread is to maintain that the human species was founded by two people, Eve and Adam. The Science of Human Evolution says that the human species began as a large population evolving from a previous large population. The Original Sin means that it is the original one by the original human.

True and true.

In a large humanizing population, how many individual humans committed the Original Sin?

Two individuals were involved, the one we name Adam ultimately responsible.

Which individual committed the Original which resulted in disaster? And yes, who cares? Which is the point.

The one individual we refer to as Adam.

 

[Wesrock]

From paragraph 36, Humani Generis
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
“provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.”

When there is an article catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/what-you-absolutely-need-to-understand-about-evolution which omits the basic rule of evolution theory --the new human species developed in a rather large population of “Adams” –
there is the reasonable possibility that one or two Adams or a hundred Adams chose to disobey the Creator God. And there is also the reasonable possibility that the majority of Adams chose God and obeyed His command. Interestingly, some current humans would have received the gift of bodily immortality, that is, they would not have to die. While there have been speculations about how Adam would enter heaven if he had not chosen the Original Sin, there is no doctrine on that question. (CCC 404)

The Catholic Church established the simple fact that there is only one Adam in the True Creation Story.

God used common sense when He created Adam as the first true human person.

We’ve been over this. Evolutionary polygenism says nothing about their being thousands of Adams and thousands of original sin or thousands of ensouled individuals not descended from Adam.

 

[grannymh]

We’ve been over this. Evolutionary polygenism says nothing about their being thousands of Adams and thousands of original sin or thousands of ensouled individuals not descended from Adam.

You are correct.

On the other hand, evolutionary polygenesis points to Adam as a natural developing member in originating humanizing populations.

 

[grannymh]

We’ve been over this. Evolutionary polygenism says nothing about their being thousands of Adams and thousands of original sin or thousands of ensouled individuals not descended from Adam.

Serious question.
Why is it so important that fundamental evolution theory determines the Catholic teaching on the origin of the human species?

It sounds like the scientific material world finally out shines the spiritual world of the Divine Creator as recorded in the first three often missing chapters of Genesis. Some people are able to recognize the True Creation Story and some prefer sliding that info under the rug.

 

[grannymh]

Serious question.
Why is it so important that fundamental evolution theory determines the Catholic teaching on the origin of the human species?

It sounds like the scientific material world finally out shines the spiritual world of the Divine Creator as recorded in the first three often missing chapters of Genesis. Some people are able to recognize the True Creation Story and some prefer sliding that info under the rug.

I have a guess maybe.

I think the wolves in sheep’s clothing, those popular writers/speakers who hack away at the foundational first three chapters of Genesis, have been so clever, that some people find it very easy to skip the True Creation Story. Who would take a talking snake seriously? Certainly not a scientist.

There is another observation. However, I need someone to talk to. I am looking for the few persons who have heard about modern (stealth) Arianism.

 

[grannymh]

I have a guess maybe.

I think the wolves in sheep’s clothing, those popular writers/speakers who hack away at the foundational first three chapters of Genesis, have been so clever, that some people find it very easy to skip the True Creation Story. Who would take a talking snake seriously? Certainly not a scientist.

There is another observation. However, I need someone to talk to. I am looking for the few persons who have heard about modern (stealth) Arianism.

“Empty pews” is a form of modern Arianism.

When readers go deep into the first three fascinating chapters of Sacred Scripture, the actions of the Divine Creator are front and center. The Divine Creator God is the sole Creator of the original friendship relationship which includes the first human creature Adam.

Because of Adam’s freedom, the original humanity/Divinity relationship can be broken. Because only a Divine Person can restore a Divine relationship, it is impossible for a human creature to repair and renew God’s gift of His relationship. The solution is John 3:16-17.

When some, not all, Catholics propose that the first three sacred chapters of Genesis include metaphor teachings, we ask ourselves – Is Genesis 1: 27 a metaphor? This can be considered a trick question.

When there are the usual arguments about the first three metaphor chapters descripting God’s metaphor creation, should common sense be used? That cannot be considered a trick question.

 

[grannymh]

The True Creation Story is found in the first three sacred chapters of Genesis.

Genesis begins with the amazing beauty of the material world. Beauty wins over all the conflicts with this and that scientific knowledge. Tonight, if possible, step outside. Even in the midst of a dirty city, one can understand God’s gift of beauty.

God, Who is beyond our material world, calls us to Himself.
That is one of the many meanings of Genesis 1: 27

"God created mankind in His image;

in the image of God He created them;

male and female* He created them."

usccb.org/bible/genesis/1

What makes us beautiful is our spiritual soul in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Adam, who is the Original human, began life in the State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Each human person is worthy of profound respect

 

[grannymh]

What makes us beautiful is our spiritual soul in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Adam, who is the Original human, began life in the State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace.

For some dumb reason, we get stuck in the wars against the sacred chapters of the True Creation Story. Instead, we need to open our eyes to the fact that Sanctifying Grace gives us a “share in the divine life of the Trinity.” (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898) If we really thought about this, we would be flat on the floor in amazement.
Genesis 2: 15-17

15
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.
16
The LORD God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17
except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.

Today, take 5 minutes and figure out what would happen if Adam had obeyed his Creator God. If one obeys, there is life (opposite of death) in eternal joy of the Beatific Vision in heaven following bodily death.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Each human person is worthy of profound respect

 

[grannymh]

grannymh:
Today, take 5 minutes and figure out what would happen if Adam had obeyed his Creator God. If one obeys, there is life (opposite of death) in eternal joy of the Beatific Vision in heaven following bodily death.

Over the years, there have been various opinions, but nothing set in stone. There is no Catholic doctrine regarding the “if Adam” part of the mystery.

Paragraph 404, universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

“But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

In my personal opinion, it can be good to think about “what if Adam…”

This, hopefully, can lead us to thinking carefully about the original human nature of the original human man and his original relationship with his Divine Creator.

In our current culture, there are so many attempts at downgrading the first three sacred chapters of Genesis, something is needed to bring us back to The True Creation Story.

 

[grannymh]

Attention Folks!

A new Thingamajig is approaching the CAF as we currently know it.

It is getting close to your last chance to post your favorite whatchamacallit from the first three timeless chapters in Genesis.

Personally, I was disappointed that when the yummy organic fruit had a second bite, there was half a worm left inside.

With all the amazing stuff in the first Genesis verses to Chapter 1: 25, why would any intelligent person long for something beyond the material world?

Can we hurry up and find a decent, make everyone happy, explanation for Original Sin. Maybe we should simply say that Adam was hungry and Eve was a lousy cook.
Nope. That would not work because that would cause a bunch of posts about where women stood in the human race.

On the other hand, I keep hoping that someone will figure out that what is really important is where both women and men stand in God’s Spiritual World. Or sit in God’s Spiritual World. I will be delighted if I get a seat in the back row. Come to think of it. It would really be wonderful if there were standing room only in God’s world.

I know there are a lot of Guests who, with a bit of guts, read this thread. Suggestion is that Guests register and become a CAF member. Then, they will be able to say that they are one of the last living members of this version of CAF.

Note: This thread is dedicated to the Holy Spirit.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Each person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[simpleas]

Over the years, there have been various opinions, but nothing set in stone. There is no Catholic doctrine regarding the “if Adam” part of the mystery.

Paragraph 404, universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

“But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

In my personal opinion, it can be good to think about “what if Adam…”

This, hopefully, can lead us to thinking carefully about the original human nature of the original human man and his original relationship with his Divine Creator.

In our current culture, there are so many attempts at downgrading the first three sacred chapters of Genesis, something is needed to bring us back to The True Creation Story.

No problem is we can’t ‘go back’ to something we never actually saw/participated in.
We say A&E didn’t see God, but that they walked with God.
We can say we walk with God, but haven’t actually seen God face to face, only God in each other, and I would say animals and creation too.

 

[grannymh]

No problem is we can’t ‘go back’ to something we never actually saw/participated in.
We say A&E didn’t see God, but that they walked with God.
We can say we walk with God, but haven’t actually seen God face to face, only God in each other, and I would say animals and creation too.

If “we” is you and I –

Then it is our responsibility to be in the State of Sanctifying Grace. One of the many ways to understand Genesis 1: 27 is that the first two humans were created in the State of Sanctifying Grace aka Original Holiness. Like us, they had the responsibility of remaining in this Holy State by being obedient to our Divine Creator. Genesis 2: 15-17.

Perhaps the problem is that we often refer to the Garden of Eden as the Garden of Paradise. When paradise is used, it means a state of supreme earthly good and not the particular heaven (Beatific Vision) which would follow if Adam had not disobeyed.

Because the State of Sanctifying Grace (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898) gives us “a share in the Divine Life of the Trinity” we attempt to describe it in human terms like God walking in the Garden which would be God living very very close with Adam and Eve. (State of Sanctifying Grace)Therefore, human language tries to describe this as walking with God.

The above is why we turn to the Catholic Church for interpretation. Paragraph 390, universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
**CCC 390 **The account of the fall in *Genesis *3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

 

[grannymh]

No problem is we can’t ‘go back’ to something we never actually saw/participated in.
We say A&E didn’t see God, but that they walked with God.
We can say we walk with God, but haven’t actually seen God face to face, only God in each other, and I would say animals and creation too.

Question.
Need a bit of clarification about the last sentence. “We can say we walk with God, but haven’t actually seen God face to face, only God in each other, and I would say animals and creation too.” Is there something unique we see in both animals and creation?

 

[simpleas]

If “we” is you and I –

Then it is our responsibility to be in the State of Sanctifying Grace. One of the many ways to understand Genesis 1: 27 is that the first two humans were created in the State of Sanctifying Grace aka Original Holiness. Like us, they had the responsibility of remaining in this Holy State by being obedient to our Divine Creator. Genesis 2: 15-17.

Perhaps the problem is that we often refer to the Garden of Eden as the Garden of Paradise. When paradise is used, it means a state of supreme earthly good and not the particular heaven (Beatific Vision) which would follow if Adam had not disobeyed.

Because the State of Sanctifying Grace (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898) gives us “a share in the Divine Life of the Trinity” we attempt to describe it in human terms like God walking in the Garden which would be God living very very close with Adam and Eve. (State of Sanctifying Grace)Therefore, human language tries to describe this as walking with God.

The above is why we turn to the Catholic Church for interpretation. Paragraph 390, universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
**CCC 390 **The account of the fall in *Genesis *3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

I’m sorry but I can not compare our state of SG with the original state of holiness and justice A&E were in. Maybe I still need to understand it.
But we cannot consider ourselves free from sin, A&E on the other hand were completely free from sin, before the fall.

How else could we describe Eden?

If as the CCC states:

400 :282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284

Man apparently caused creation to become subject to the bondage of decay, along with himself/herself.

 

[simpleas]

Question.
Need a bit of clarification about the last sentence. “We can say we walk with God, but haven’t actually seen God face to face, only God in each other, and I would say animals and creation too.” Is there something unique we see in both animals and creation?

I see the uniqueness of animals and creation on a daily basis, I think it would be an individual’s explanation, not something that can be learnt, more like, to be experienced.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by grannymh

It is getting close to your last chance to post your favorite whatchamacallit from the first three timeless chapters in Genesis.

Here is mine

*26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.*

My garden of EDEN

 

[Ridgerunner]

The first question is easy. It’s because we have hands that are very good at fine grasping, arms that allow us to throw straight with significant force, and brains that cause and allow us to carry a long term purpose through. I’m reminded here of something A.S. Solzhenitzyn said. He said, of all the earth’s creatures, men are the toughest and most adaptable. We live in the arctic, in the tropics, everywhere in between, in deserts, on water, in mountains, swamps, and jungles, and not only survive, but thrive, in every one of them. We’re hard for earth and climate to kill. He remarked the Gulag prisoners in the Kolyma who went to work at 50 below zero weather dressed only in sacks. Even Mongolian ponies couldn’t survive in that weather. We survive because we’re hard to kill and because we can employ inanimate and animate objects to purposes beyond the immediate.

The second is more difficult. We have a longing for something beyond our material world because we’re capable of perceiving it and its perfection, however imperfectly, and we know it does not have the limitations of the material world. We’re geared to unite with infinity and know it, even without being told.

 

[grannymh]

I’m sorry but I can not compare our state of SG with the original state of holiness and justice A&E were in. Maybe I still need to understand it.

The first step to understanding the State of Sanctifying Grace as the same as Adam and Eve’s State of Original Holiness is to decide if there is only one Divine Creator.

If there is only one Divine Creator, then there is only one Divine Life in which humans can share. It does not change God’s Divine Life when there are human beings descending from Adam and Eve.

Another suggestion is to study the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

General observation of what I see on CAF.
Good Catholics need to be very careful when reading the internet.

 

[simpleas]

The first step to understanding the State of Sanctifying Grace as the same as Adam and Eve’s State of Original Holiness is to decide if there is only one Divine Creator.

If there is only one Divine Creator, then there is only one Divine Life in which humans can share. It does not change God’s Divine Life when there are human beings descending from Adam and Eve.

Another suggestion is to study the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

General observation of what I see on CAF.
Good Catholics need to be very careful when reading the internet.

Yes, there is only one God, one Divine life to share in.

It’s all to difficult to go into, I haven’t got the brain for it…

Thanks for your suggestions.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, there is only one God, one Divine life to share in.

It’s all to difficult to go into, I haven’t got the brain for it…

Thanks for your suggestions.

You did mention that there is one Divine life that humans can share in. Perhaps the internet is denying Adam as a real person. When the internet substitutes “original blessings” for the truth of Original Sin, Adam has to be thrown into the trash.

My guess is that Adam is not acceptable as being real, so that is why one cannot recognize Adam’s State of Sanctifying Grace aka State of Original Holiness. CCC 375 refers “to share in …divine life.”

Those popular Notable Progressive Christians, who want to change the foundation of the Catholic Church, understand the need to get rid of the Catholic truths which flow from the first three fundamental chapters of Genesis. Rebuilding Christianity is not the solution. Notable Progressive Christians are not our saviors.

Link to Wikipedia list. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Christianity#Notable_Progressive_Christians