The truth about NFP

[kptrs]

In my friend’s case, it’s a yearly trip to Disney World- no visiting of family. She also says that she likes having a new car (replaced every few years). And, no, it’s not for reasons of safety- she just likes new cars. But, like many people, she justifies this as just because SHE thinks it’s just.

I’ll definitely check out that book. Thanks for the recommendation.

With all due respect, you probably don’t know the whole story. Maybe the yearly trip to Disney World is good for husband and wife and the children who are already born just because it’s their time together away from the stresses of daily life (as most vacations are). Growing up, very few of our family vacations were to visit family, but all of them were time away from my dad’s highly stressful job. He would have lost his mind if not for those yearly vacations.

As for the cars…as I said, don’t be quick to judge. There may be more to the story.

I don’t know how well you know your friend, but even if you know her very well, there is most likely quite a bit behind the scenes that you don’t know. That’s why the Church doesn’t have a “list” of just reasons. Those reasons are different for everyone.

 

[Allegra]

In my friend’s case, it’s a yearly trip to Disney World- no visiting of family. She also says that she likes having a new car (replaced every few years). And, no, it’s not for reasons of safety- she just likes new cars. But, like many people, she justifies this as just because SHE thinks it’s just.

I’ll definitely check out that book. Thanks for the recommendation.

It seems like a less-just reason, if it’s presented as a reason for not going from one child to two children. Of course, you might not be able to Disney cruise every year, but you can certainly camp or go to a neighboring city with two kids. It makes a lot more sense when it’s the difference between being able to visit grandma a few times a year without having to rent a van. Sure, when I was growing up, we were able to pile five kids into a sedan and go to Branson. We just had to put the beach towels over the parking break so the toddler would have a place to sit. But nowadays, folks have gotten a lot more persnickety about silly things like appropriate car seats and having only one child per seatbelt. I think it’s also generally frowned on for the four year old’s seatbelt to be the twelve year old’s arms.

 

[Regina7]

With all due respect, you probably don’t know the whole story. Maybe the yearly trip to Disney World is good for husband and wife and the children who are already born just because it’s their time together away from the stresses of daily life (as most vacations are). Growing up, very few of our family vacations were to visit family, but all of them were time away from my dad’s highly stressful job. He would have lost his mind if not for those yearly vacations.

As for the cars…as I said, don’t be quick to judge. There may be more to the story.

I don’t know how well you know your friend, but even if you know her very well, there is most likely quite a bit behind the scenes that you don’t know. That’s why the Church doesn’t have a “list” of just reasons. Those reasons are different for everyone.

Ok, but the trip doesn’t need to be a 10k one. Like Allegra said, why not camping? Or something cheaper? This year’s trip was an Alaskan cruise. I’m all about family time away from stress, but come on.

I know my friend quite well. She is quite open that she likes new model cars with all the bells and whistles and loves a new car smell. She says she has expensive tastes, which she says is just because God have her those tastes/desires.

Pretty much ANY reason can be manipulated to be “just.”

 

[gardenswithkids]

In my friend’s case, it’s a yearly trip to Disney World- no visiting of family. She also says that she likes having a new car (replaced every few years). And, no, it’s not for reasons of safety- she just likes new cars. But, like many people, she justifies this as just because SHE thinks it’s just.

…

This brings us to one of the beauties of the challenges to NFP. Both husband and wife would need to have either great devotion to Disney and their cars OR have limited fertility in order for NFP to effectively prevent pregancy in such cases as this. While we may discuss “just” reasons, the reality that NFP is difficult serves as sort of a built-in protection against long term misuse.

I’m not going to even judge your friend’s use of NFP in this situation described above because if she’s trying to stick to Church approved means of avoiding pregnancy and making herself available to Mass and the sacraments, God will work this out with her and her husband over time.

 

[utunumsint]

This brings us to one of the beauties of the challenges to NFP. Both husband and wife would need to have either great devotion to Disney and their cars OR have limited fertility in order for NFP to effectively prevent pregancy in such cases as this. While we may discuss “just” reasons, the reality that NFP is difficult serves as sort of a built-in protection against long term misuse.

I’m not going to even judge your friend’s use of NFP in this situation described above because if she’s trying to stick to Church approved means of avoiding pregnancy and making herself available to Mass and the sacraments, God will work this out with her and her husband over time.

Agreed!

God bless,
Ut

 

[Regina7]

This brings us to one of the beauties of the challenges to NFP. Both husband and wife would need to have either great devotion to Disney and their cars OR have limited fertility in order for NFP to effectively prevent pregancy in such cases as this. While we may discuss “just” reasons, the reality that NFP is difficult serves as sort of a built-in protection against long term misuse.

I’m not going to even judge your friend’s use of NFP in this situation described above because if she’s trying to stick to Church approved means of avoiding pregnancy and making herself available to Mass and the sacraments, God will work this out with her and her husband over time.

I have no doubt that God will work this out. But the frustrating thing is how many are led astray by manipulating the word “just”? When I’ve tried talking to her, she simply says that that’s what just means. This whole mentality is seen (by me, at least) in other cases besides this one friend. It’s very sad to me.

 

[kptrs]

Ok, but the trip doesn’t need to be a 10k one. Like Allegra said, why not camping? Or something cheaper? This year’s trip was an Alaskan cruise. I’m all about family time away from stress, but come on.

I know my friend quite well. She is quite open that she likes new model cars with all the bells and whistles and loves a new car smell. She says she has expensive tastes, which she says is just because God have her those tastes/desires.

Pretty much ANY reason can be manipulated to be “just.”

Fair enough. But, as gardenswithkids points out in her post, she is at least using NFP rather than contraception, and if she’s doing it diligently enough to be as effective as it is for her, she’s not getting much time for relations with her husband. So, that eventually may be enough to have them reevaluate their reasons for avoiding pregnancy.

 

[kptrs]

This brings us to one of the beauties of the challenges to NFP. Both husband and wife would need to have either great devotion to Disney and their cars OR have limited fertility in order for NFP to effectively prevent pregancy in such cases as this. While we may discuss “just” reasons, the reality that NFP is difficult serves as sort of a built-in protection against long term misuse.

I’m not going to even judge your friend’s use of NFP in this situation described above because if she’s trying to stick to Church approved means of avoiding pregnancy and making herself available to Mass and the sacraments, God will work this out with her and her husband over time.

 

[kptrs]

I have no doubt that God will work this out. But the frustrating thing is how many are led astray by manipulating the word “just”? When I’ve tried talking to her, she simply says that that’s what just means. This whole mentality is seen (by me, at least) in other cases besides this one friend. It’s very sad to me.

I really do agree with a lot of what you’re saying. For one thing, I’m an only child (my parents tried to have more kids but they couldn’t) and I would have traded all the vacations in the world for just one sibling. Family is much more important than fancy “stuff”. I guess the main bottom line I’m trying to convey is that only God knows the whole story behind people’s reasons for using NFP and we are not to judge.

 

[Regina7]

Fair enough. But, as gardenswithkids points out in her post, she is at least using NFP rather than contraception, and if she’s doing it diligently enough to be as effective as it is for her, she’s not getting much time for relations with her husband. So, that eventually may be enough to have them reevaluate their reasons for avoiding pregnancy.

True. But I wonder if a clearer definition of “just” would have eliminated them learning the hard way. Many people, like my friend, obey clear laws of the Church. Any rules left open to interpretation are frequently manipulated to justify what the person WANTS. I believe that, in this case, the Church is doing a disservice to us by not being more explicit. I understand that circumstances differ, but there could be clearer guidelines. After all, the “rules” are there to help us, right?

 

[Nigel7]

I’ve got a question. I’ve been wondering why it is that God likes NFP but not other forms of BC. The Church teaches that any attempt to avoid pregnancy when having sex is wrong/disordered since it’s preventing the conception of a human life. Well at the end of the day then NFP’s purpose is the same as any birth control, namely to have sex w/o getting pregnant, i.e. preventing the conception of human life. Correct?
I mean thats what all the charts and such are for, and why your husband is turning red in the face while he waits for the window of opportunity to finally arrive where he can have sex w his wife w/o her getting pregnant.
Either way you’re planning your sex life so to avoid a pregnancy.
Be it condoms, withdrawal, or charting cycles, the aim is to NOT get pregnant.
So I just dont get the logic of it all, why one way of having sex while avoiding pregnancy is good in God’s eyes and another way (condoms, withdrawal, for example) is evil when the object/result of it all is the same, namely to NOT get pregnant.
Just seems like splitting hairs to me when at the end of the day the aim/desire is the same, namely to have sex without getting pregnant - to enjoy the pleasure of sex without the side effect (pregnancy), so to speak.
The aim is all the same. So what gives? What’s the difference, really?

 

[Regina7]

I really do agree with a lot of what you’re saying. For one thing, I’m an only child (my parents tried to have more kids but they couldn’t) and I would have traded all the vacations in the world for just one sibling. Family is much more important than fancy “stuff”. I guess the main bottom line I’m trying to convey is that only God knows the whole story behind people’s reasons for using NFP and we are not to judge.

Judging means determining whether someone goes to heaven or hell. So we technically CANT judge. However, it is a spiritual work of mercy to rebuke a sinner. And shouldn’t we want this? If we truly love our family and friends, shouldn’t their soul be of utmost importance. Just like I appreciate when my family and friends point me in the right direction- I know they care for me…and they are usually right. But too often, and I include myself here, it’s just easier to say nothing and our excuse is “I shouldn’t judge.”

So, in the case of my friend, how am I helping her by keeping my mouth shut? If I TRULY loved her, my discomfort at possible repercussions in confronting her wouldn’t matter because I’d be putting her soul, and not my comfort, first.

In the case of my friend, I did talk to her. She brought up nfp and the vacations, so I asked her whether the Church considers those just reasons. She may not listen to me (so far she hasn’t) but I tried. I planted a seed and now it’s her decision what to do. It’s on her soul what she decides. But now I at least know I did what I could.

 

[Regina7]

I’ve got a question. I’ve been wondering why it is that God likes NFP but not other forms of BC. The Church teaches that any attempt to avoid pregnancy when having sex is wrong/disordered since it’s preventing the conception of a human life. Well at the end of the day then NFP’s purpose is the same as any birth control, namely to have sex w/o getting pregnant, i.e. preventing the conception of human life. Correct?
I mean thats what all the charts and such are for, and why your husband is turning red in the face while he waits for the window of opportunity to finally arrive where he can have sex w his wife w/o her getting pregnant.
Either way you’re planning your sex life so to avoid a pregnancy.
Be it condoms, withdrawal, or charting cycles, the aim is to NOT get pregnant.
So I just dont get the logic of it all, why one way of having sex while avoiding pregnancy is good in God’s eyes and another way (condoms, withdrawal, for example) is evil when the object/result of it all is the same, namely to NOT get pregnant.
Just seems like splitting hairs to me when at the end of the day the aim/desire is the same, namely to have sex without getting pregnant - to enjoy the pleasure of sex without the side effect (pregnancy), so to speak.
The aim is all the same. So what gives? What’s the difference, really?

Because God desires that all sex is open to life. Using abc is inherently not open to life. You can’t be open to life and be on the pill. There’s a difference between NOT having sex and having sex using a barrier.

But I understand where you are coming from. Some people, like the friend I’ve discussed, does use nfp as birth control. But that’s really not the way it’s intended.

I’m sure someone can explain this better than I have.

 

[kptrs]

Judging means determining whether someone goes to heaven or hell. So we technically CANT judge. However, it is a spiritual work of mercy to rebuke a sinner. And shouldn’t we want this? If we truly love our family and friends, shouldn’t their soul be of utmost importance. Just like I appreciate when my family and friends point me in the right direction- I know they care for me…and they are usually right. But too often, and I include myself here, it’s just easier to say nothing and our excuse is “I shouldn’t judge.”

So, in the case of my friend, how am I helping her by keeping my mouth shut? If I TRULY loved her, my discomfort at possible repercussions in confronting her wouldn’t matter because I’d be putting her soul, and not my comfort, first.

In the case of my friend, I did talk to her. She brought up nfp and the vacations, so I asked her whether the Church considers those just reasons. She may not listen to me (so far she hasn’t) but I tried. I planted a seed and now it’s her decision what to do. It’s on her soul what she decides. But now I at least know I did what I could.

You absolutely did the right thing by telling your friend about the error of her ways. But one can be judgemental by jumping to conclusions about people’s motives behind their actions, and those motives are known only to God, so that is solely God’s realm. An analogy would be concluding that someone who repeatedly leaves Mass early is doing so for selfish reasons, while the true reason is that it is the only way they can get to Mass with their work schedule and they have to leave early to get to work in order to provide for their family. I know that’s not exactly the same as what you are experiencing with your friend, but my point is, a person’s true motivation is known only to God.

 

[kptrs]

I’ve got a question. I’ve been wondering why it is that God likes NFP but not other forms of BC. The Church teaches that any attempt to avoid pregnancy when having sex is wrong/disordered since it’s preventing the conception of a human life. Well at the end of the day then NFP’s purpose is the same as any birth control, namely to have sex w/o getting pregnant, i.e. preventing the conception of human life. Correct?
I mean thats what all the charts and such are for, and why your husband is turning red in the face while he waits for the window of opportunity to finally arrive where he can have sex w his wife w/o her getting pregnant.
Either way you’re planning your sex life so to avoid a pregnancy.
Be it condoms, withdrawal, or charting cycles, the aim is to NOT get pregnant.
So I just dont get the logic of it all, why one way of having sex while avoiding pregnancy is good in God’s eyes and another way (condoms, withdrawal, for example) is evil when the object/result of it all is the same, namely to NOT get pregnant.
Just seems like splitting hairs to me when at the end of the day the aim/desire is the same, namely to have sex without getting pregnant - to enjoy the pleasure of sex without the side effect (pregnancy), so to speak.
The aim is all the same. So what gives? What’s the difference, really?

God made a woman’s body to have times of fertility and times of infertility. It’s not a sin to have sex during the times of infertility, and it’s not a sin to not have sex during the times of fertility. But it is a sin to have sex during either time and directly stop the act from being complete (I.e spermicides kill sperm, condoms prevent sperm from going inside the woman, etc.) With NFP, the sexual act is complete, it just naturally doesn’t result in pregnancy at that given time.

 

[Xantippe]

Ok, but the trip doesn’t need to be a 10k one. Like Allegra said, why not camping? Or something cheaper? This year’s trip was an Alaskan cruise. I’m all about family time away from stress, but come on.

I know my friend quite well. She is quite open that she likes new model cars with all the bells and whistles and loves a new car smell. She says she has expensive tastes, which she says is just because God have her those tastes/desires.

Pretty much ANY reason can be manipulated to be “just.”

That’s not an average person’s issue, though. In fact, going off of my own experience and years of listening to Dave Ramsey, I’m assuming that has to be at least a $150k a year family.

We’re a well above median income family, but with a big (for us) mortgage and two kids in private school, that accounts for a huge chunk of our monthly income. For a family like us (which is in probably the top 20th percentile), once we do the mortgage, two private school tuitions, two VERY moderate paid-for cars (one unstealable Ford sedan, one Kia minivan), some household help (yard twice a month, housecleaning twice a month), and some extracurriculars and summer camps, we’re pretty much done. I can cheat a little and get us to see the grandmas for a week or two a year and a night or two in the big city, but that’s it. No Disney. We went once 4 years ago, but that was a grandma gift. (Thanks, grandma!!!)

Very, very few families (outside of Florida or Southern CA) can afford Disney at all regularly (even once every several years).

If this family isn’t making $150k a year or more, they are probably in a lot of financial trouble.

 

[Xantippe]

True. But I wonder if a clearer definition of “just” would have eliminated them learning the hard way. Many people, like my friend, obey clear laws of the Church. Any rules left open to interpretation are frequently manipulated to justify what the person WANTS. I believe that, in this case, the Church is doing a disservice to us by not being more explicit. I understand that circumstances differ, but there could be clearer guidelines. After all, the “rules” are there to help us, right?

You don’t have to answer this, but how many kids does your friend have?

 

[Regina7]

You don’t have to answer this, but how many kids does your friend have?

2

 

[Regina7]

That’s not an average person’s issue, though. In fact, going off of my own experience and years of listening to Dave Ramsey, I’m assuming that has to be at least a $150k a year family.

We’re a well above median income family, but with a big (for us) mortgage and two kids in private school, that accounts for a huge chunk of our monthly income. For a family like us (which is in probably the top 20th percentile), once we do the mortgage, two private school tuitions, two VERY moderate paid-for cars (one unstealable Ford sedan, one Kia minivan), some household help (yard twice a month, housecleaning twice a month), and some extracurriculars and summer camps, we’re pretty much done. I can cheat a little and get us to see the grandmas for a week or two a year and a night or two in the big city, but that’s it. No Disney. We went once 4 years ago, but that was a grandma gift. (Thanks, grandma!!!)

Very, very few families (outside of Florida or Southern CA) can afford Disney at all regularly (even once every several years).

If this family isn’t making $150k a year or more, they are probably in a lot of financial trouble.

This is exactly my point. To you and me, a yearly luxury vacation is excessive. But to other people, it’s not. Some would say that hiring people for yard work is excessive (I don’t- no way I could handle my yard alone). Some people would say that spending money on healthy foods (organic, grass-fed meat) is excessive and shouldn’t inhibit more children. Some people think that they shouldn’t have more kids because then they couldn’t fully pay for university for kids. Each person has a great argument for why these are “just” reasons. And while most of us would say a luxury vacation and new cars are not just reasons, my friend disagrees. This is where a clearer definition of “just” would really be helpful.

 

[Allegra]

That’s not an average person’s issue, though. In fact, going off of my own experience and years of listening to Dave Ramsey, I’m assuming that has to be at least a $150k a year family.

We’re a well above median income family, but with a big (for us) mortgage and two kids in private school, that accounts for a huge chunk of our monthly income. For a family like us (which is in probably the top 20th percentile), once we do the mortgage, two private school tuitions, two VERY moderate paid-for cars (one unstealable Ford sedan, one Kia minivan), some household help (yard twice a month, housecleaning twice a month), and some extracurriculars and summer camps, we’re pretty much done. I can cheat a little and get us to see the grandmas for a week or two a year and a night or two in the big city, but that’s it. No Disney. We went once 4 years ago, but that was a grandma gift. (Thanks, grandma!!!)

Very, very few families (outside of Florida or Southern CA) can afford Disney at all regularly (even once every several years).

If this family isn’t making $150k a year or more, they are probably in a lot of financial trouble.

We got to go twice, but my parents didn’t really consider it the epitome of vacations anyway. We drove and ate out of the picnic basket. We went to Chicago often, because it’s a five hour drive. We all flew to Boston once because it was my mother’s dream and because her boss let her keep these little tickets that came in the packages of meat that they used at the nursing home where she worked. She was able to save up enough of them to exchange for the airfare. Another time, my parents sat through a timeshare spiel so we could go to Gatlinburg, TN, which was one of the best trips we took. The worst and most expensive trip we took was to Door County, WI. We were driving two cars by that point. Even with a large family, it is possibly to make fun vacations work, though you have to be creative and willing to go without all the frills tacked on. If the point of the trip is to have quality time with the family, that should be doable. If the point of the trip is to have a full week of feeling like a rock star and be as pampered and extravagant as possible, then probably not.