The Truth about the Mormons from a Devout Mormon

[BYU-BOY]

tkdnick:

Hey, I totally understand because I have tons of questions too. I just want to hear the responses to the original ones first.

tkdnick and others,

Thank you for your patience as I work on these questions. I hope to have at least two or three answers posted tomorrow. I really appreciate tkdnick on making sure we stay on task. It takes a lot discipline to not get riled up by Katholikos and go off on tangents. However, I have to keep reminding myself that neither I or my religion are on trial here, at least I don’t think so. I’m not looking for a verdict of what you folks believe about Mormonism. What I hope to post here are answers to what we believe and not Apologetics. So, again thank you for your patience and I hope to have several answers for you shortly.

BYU BOY

 

[Malachi4U]

BYU-BOY,

Gods peace be with you and welcome to this forum. I am so glad to see a practicing member of the LDS church here willing to give such great answers with such excellent tact. Sometimes we see some rude posts but you have been doing well in the ones I have read. I enjoy what you write and I like the fact that you have even given sources. Anytime a group or religion attacks another unjustly is wrong, I know, I am Catholic now and have had to listen to Baptist preachers lie about my current Faith repeatedly from the pulpit, etc. This does not even include evil web sites like chick.com or mtc.com or bible.ca etc… I also know your church is persecuted with lies as well. I have visited sites like utlm.org or aomin.org by James White. Both of these sites are dedicated to the truth and are very anti-LDS. I know aomin.org is very misleading about the Catholic religion and I can only assume it is worse for the LDS side.

The only way to make an informed decission is to have truth in our facts. Please keep up the good work of spreading the truth about the LDS opinions on theology.

I just moved out of Utah and must say that I am glad to be gone. I still am in an area with religious descrimination but now it is fellow ‘so-called’ Christians doing it to me and my family. (I define Christian as one Baptized with water in the name of the Trinity as stated in Sacred Scripture. Websters definition would include the LDS of course since you claim to follow some of His teachings too.) Catholics are still a minority here in Oklahoma too. While I was in Utah ALL of my neighbors were LDS and most of the people I worked with. I worked with several Bishops and enjoyed what I learned from them. I also learned much truth about the LDS church and Joe, its founder.

I could never become an LDS memeber but I do believe others here need to know the truth about your sect. Please keep up the outstanding work and spreading the truth. Correct those who lie about any belief!

My our Heavenly Father (i.e. Trinity) guide you,

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Exporter:

B J Colbert,
You said ,“Joseph Smith was not a treasure hunter, but a 14 year old farm boy with no education.”

This is not true in a strict sense! Your statement is not true!

Joseph Smith’s father was known by the neighbors as a man who would rather try to make a “quick” dollar than to farm the land.

How fortunate you are to have talked with his neighbors, and very old indeed…

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

BYU-BOY:

. Yet, it is not the church that saves us but Jesus Christ. Therefore, if I have to chose between the two to follow, I chose Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Church," Peter upon this Rock I will build My Church" not Your Church.
Jesus didn’t say “Churches” singular not plural, without Jesus there wouldn’t be a Church.

 

[Exporter]

BJ Colbert:

How fortunate you are to have talked with his neighbors, and very old indeed…

Ha, Ha, Ha Colbert you are witty, but wrong. In 1998, over a 7 to 8 month period I did a library search on the prompting of two Morman Missionaries. I must have read over 24 books, and scanned several others. I had maybe 6 book on loan from the Library in Salt Lake City, and others from University Libraries from several states.

My information comes from books printed mostly in the early part of the 20th Century. It was common for people of Joseph Smith’s time to hunt for gold. In the 1840s the great Gold Rush began in California. How do you suppose it started? Gold miners came after treasure hunters found gold.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Katholikos:

BJ, regardless of what you may have been taught, twice I have posted the exact words of Orson Pratt, one of the 12 original Apostles of the LDS church, chosen personally by Joseph Smith, appointed by Brigham Young to teach official doctrine, teaching in 1853, that God had intercourse with the Virgin Mary and produced Jesus. This was the official doctrine of the Mormon church – at least at that time.

JMJ Jay

Did you read what BYU-BOY said in answer to the above statement? Go back and read his answer about Orson Pratt. It is the truth, and we are not taught that God had intercourse with the Virgin. She was a virgin until after Jesus was born. The Prophet leads the apostles and gives them counsel. If they use their own interpretations and they are wrong, they are cautioned in no uncertain terms. Some have been excommunicated at times. They are like your priests, I am sure the Catholic church does not teach all their parishoners that molesting children is church doctrine. Sorry to be so literal with an example of your own church that has caused good Catholics much consternation and shock, but I feel it is a similar situation as that which you are quoting and is just as disturbing to have you repeat it over and over when we are not taught that God had intercourse with Mary, and do not believe it…Period end of argument I hope…Is it clear to you now? Or will you still insist that since it was written by Orson Pratt, it must be true. Well, since your Cardinals condoned and protected the Priests so long, pedophilia must be a Doctrine taught in the Catholic church. Is that offensive to you? Then realize how offensive what you insist on stating as true Mormon Doctrine is to me.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Exporter:

Ha, Ha, Ha Colbert you are witty, but wrong. In 1998, over a 7 to 8 month period I did a library search on the prompting of two Morman Missionaries. I must have read over 24 books, and scanned several others. I had maybe 6 book on loan from the Library in Salt Lake City, and others from University Libraries from several states.

My information comes from books printed mostly in the early part of the 20th Century. It was common for people of Joseph Smith’s time to hunt for gold. In the 1840s the great Gold Rush began in California. How do you suppose it started? Gold miners came after treasure hunters found gold.

I was not commenting on the gold hunting, I know it was common just as hunting animals for food and farming. I was commenting on your remark that Joseph Smith Sr. was lazy and known to avoid working his farm to hunt for gold instead. Amazing that people would actually write a book telling how lazy their neighbor was. Not very interesting reading, I’m sure.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

tkdnick:

BJ - Not to be one of the people you so criticized in one of your previous posts, for I have enjoyed the (more civilized) conversations that have gone on between LDS members and us Catholics. However, you have made the statement above a couple of times in various ways, and I have yet to have you, nor any of the other LDS members here answer my post from a previous thread…

Sorry, I did not answer because technically you are right about the time frames, but still he would have had to be working on the book for the whole period of time, as he was claiming to receive visions. There was the sequence of events leading up to receiving and translating the plates that took up the years you have pointed out.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

BJ Colbert:

. Well, since your Cardinals condoned and protected the Priests so long, pedophilia must be a Doctrine taught in the Catholic church. Is that offensive to you? Then realize how offensive what you insist on stating as true Mormon Doctrine is to me.

People in glass houses should’nt throw stones > kosnoff.com/construction/

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

They are like your priests, I am sure the Catholic church does not teach all their parishoners that molesting children is church doctrine. Sorry to be so literal with an example of your own church that has caused good Catholics much consternation and shock, but I feel it is a similar situation as that which you are quoting and is just as disturbing to have you repeat it over and over

BJ - No offense…but attacking us and our beliefs is really not the way to get ANY point across! I realize that there have been some rather hostile comments regarding your religion here, but attacking us isn’t going to make any point! Two wrongs don’t make a right (I know, pretty cliche). There have been some claims made here that LDS take any disagreement with their beliefs as a personal attack or as hating Mormons…When you attack back, that’s kinda the message you send. I know it’s not easy to try to explain your beliefs in a place where everyone else disagrees with you, but stick to explaining your beliefs and/or trying to understand ours. Attacking us doesn’t get anywhere, just as someone attacking you gets nowhere.

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

Sorry, I did not answer because technically you are right about the time frames, but still he would have had to be working on the book for the whole period of time, as he was claiming to receive visions. There was the sequence of events leading up to receiving and translating the plates that took up the years you have pointed out.

You ignored the point. You said Joseph Smith was an uneducated 14 yr old when he translated the BoM. I pointed out that he was in fact 21 when he began.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Stephen-Maguire:

People in glass houses should’nt throw stones > kosnoff.com/construction//QUOTE\

Sorry, but the stones were thrown at me first, I only defended myself in a very lowbrow way and I am ashamed of myself, I should not have stooped so low.
As a Christian I should have just turned the other cheek, but as a human I became angry at the infurance that Mormons believe that God had sex with the Virgin Mary.  It is not true, anymore than pedophilia is a doctrine of the Catholic church.  I know it is only some misguided priests who took part in that and in so doing cast a shadow on the whole Church to the point that some parishes are going bankrupt.  
In the same way, a few misguided Mormons may have said things that are not Church doctrine, and therefore caused people in the Catholic church  to think that it is one of our beliefs.

 

[Exporter]

B J Colbert,

You just wrote this after a gentleman told you that when you attack the Catholic Church you make no headway, but rather you make an enemy.

You wrote," It is not true, anymore than pedophilia is a doctrine of the Catholic church."

Was that necessary?

 

[Katholikos]

BJ, with regard to the Mormon doctrine that God (Heavenly Father) had intercourse with the Virgin Mary and that he is the*** literal ***father of Jesus, bear in mind, please, that (as you know), the LDS church teaches that God is merely an “exalted man” of flesh and bones with “body, parts, and passions.” The “God had intercourse with Mary” doctrine begins with the Mormon concept of God as a mere man who has been “exalted,” and that all Mormon males who qualify will someday be gods like him.

QUOTE: Under “Worship of False Gods, The Strange Gods of Christendom” in the book, A Marvelous Work and A Wonder, by LeGrand Richards, identified as “a member of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” it states: “How could a God without body, parts, or passions be expected either to see, hear, eat, or smell?” END QUOTE (underscore added)

The Mormon god has the required physical equipment for impregnating the Virgin Mary.

This book was recommended to me for the study of Mormonism by the local LDS bookstore.

Since you are married to a Catholic who will not be “exalted,” and you cannot therefore become his goddess-wife in the afterlife, what will be your fate?

JMJ Jay

 

[BJ_Colbert]

tkdnick:

You ignored the point. You said Joseph Smith was an uneducated 14 yr old when he translated the BoM. I pointed out that he was in fact 21 when he began.

I will reread your post and try to explain, but then again maybe I won’t be able to answed. He was uneducated no matter what age he was when he began translating. I will try to answer later after I read your original post again.
Thank you for bringing me up short, you are right of course and I am very sorry for the counter attack. It was not becoming of me at all. I am very embarrassed, but I hope you won’t judge all Mormons or BYU-Boy by my shortsighted and rude comments.
I am even more uneducated than Joseph Smith was, and only have a rudimentary knowledge of scripture or history of Christianity. So what I say is from my heart and personal thoughts, not from the books that I have never read, or studied. As we have discussions it has caused me to read and study more about my religion. But, for true answers to the questions you ask, BYU Boy will do a better job than I for he has really studied and has knowledge that I do not have.

 

[BYU-BOY]

Okay, hopefully this forum will benefit from my break from my school works. The purpose of me establishing this thread was to avoid these last few posts. BJ, I completely understand your frustration and anger. However, as a missionary I always felt that the first person to lose their cool and stray from the discussion lost.

I know that this discussion of sexual union of God and Mary is difficult. It is for this very reason that I started my explanation with this question. The point is many people believe that we as Latter-day Saints feel this is doctrine. This should be explained and discussed. Yet, people will always believe whatever they want to believe. Hopefully though when this thread is finished we can all step away with some insight.

I am certain that I could not find anyone that believes that sexual abuse is apart of Catholic doctrine and therefore we should not discuss it. I have purposely left out my knowledge of Catholic history because it is not relevent to me explaining my beliefs.

Please know that this advise is from a friend. I know that it is frustrating when you feel that people are purposely looking past what you know to be true. Yet, no matter what, your words will never change their mind or beliefs.

The only thing one can do is follow the insight of Soren Kierkegaard who wrote in his tract *If only men were not able to talk: *“Life in the animal world is so easy to understand, so simple - because the animal has the advantage over men in that it is not able to talk. In this realm of existence the only thing that speaks is its life, its actions.”

 

[BYU-BOY]

BJ, Sorry about that last post. Your last post was added while I was writing a response.

 

[Katholikos]

BJ Colbert:

Did you read what BYU-BOY said in answer to the above statement? Go back and read his answer about Orson Pratt. It is the truth, and we are not taught that God had intercourse with the Virgin. She was a virgin until after Jesus was born. . .

I am sorry to offend you. I have no wish to hurt you. But your church has attacked my Church since Joseph Smith Jun. founded it in 1830, claiming that my Church is “apostate” and a liar, and stating in the Book of Mormon that the “devil is the foundation of it.” You claim that *your *church is the One True Church of Jesus Christ. I’m defending Christ’s True Church by exposing the true teachings of Mormonism, using only official, approved (at least at the time they were originally published) Mormon sources.

It starts with the Mormon teaching that there are multiple gods, that the Trinity is actually three separate gods, that God (“Heavenly Father”) is an “exalted man” of flesh and bones, that Satan is the brother of Jesus and so are we all, and it goes downhill from there.

Orson Pratt was an Apostle, Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. If he can’t teach Mormon doctrine, who can?

I believe you when you say that you have not been taught this repulsive doctrine. But it was documented, original Mormon doctrine as taught by Joseph Smith to Orson Pratt. Do I believe that Orson Pratt published The Seer without the approval of Brigham Young? No way.

Did you read former Mormon Paul DuPre’s post? Here it is again:

Thanks Jay, for saving me the trouble. I have never heard such furious back-peddling deception in all my born days.

During the eleven years that I was LDS, served a mission in Taiwan, was married in the temple, served in many, many callings including counselor to 2 bishops, the doctrine that God the Father was the LITERAL, BIOLOGICAL father of Jesus AFTER THE MANNER OF THE FLESH was a very commonly taught doctrine. I left the Mormon Church in 1986. Since then, they have attempted to re-write their history, deny their teachings and mainstream themselves as “just another Christian denomination”. What a load of bunk!

BYU-Boy, perhaps you are simply too young to remember what us old fogies remember all too well.

BTW, according to LDS doctrine, every apostle (including Orson Pratt) is a prophet, seer and revelator.
Orson Pratt was appointed by Brigham Young (a prophet) to be the official publisher of LDS doctrine to the gentile world.
Paul

(color added)

I’m very interested to learn the Mormon justification for its bizarre teachings, so I hope you and BYU-BOY continue to enlighten everyone on the forum about these beliefs.

I’m choosing to ignore your latest attack on my Church, and I forgive you from my heart.

You realize, I hope, that the conflict comes because Mormonism claims to be Christian. It isn’t. If the LDS church did not claim to be the “restored” One True Church, placing itself in direct conflict with the Catholic Church, I wouldn’t care what it taught.

Peace be with you,

Jay

 

[cestusdei]

BYU,
To go back to the original topic…it sounds like you are claim the lds believe what Catholics believe about the incarnation. Sorry, but I doubt that. It appears that lds to believe there was some physical relationship between the Father and Mary. If you deny that then state how Jesus took flesh from Mary. Make sure you define your terms as we use them differently. This is a brief statement of what we believe.

Mary’s virginity

496 From the first formulations of her faith, the Church has confessed that Jesus was conceived solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, affirming also the corporeal aspect of this event: Jesus was conceived “by the Holy Spirit without human seed”.146 The Fathers see in the virginal conception the sign that it truly was the Son of God who came in a humanity like our own. Thus St. Ignatius of Antioch at the beginning of the second century says:

You are firmly convinced about our Lord, who is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, Son of God according to the will and power of God, truly born of a virgin,. . . he was truly nailed to a tree for us in his flesh under Pontius Pilate. . . he truly suffered, as he is also truly risen.147

497 The Gospel accounts understand the virginal conception of Jesus as a divine work that surpasses all human understanding and possibility:148 “That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit”, said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee.149 The Church sees here the fulfillment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son."150

 

[Chris-WA]

tkdnick:

I think we might be running this thread a little less than effective…BYU-BOY posted the issues he wished to discuss on this thread, and more and more different issues keep getting posted. I suggest we stick to the issues posted in the original post, and if we have other questions we should start new threads. This thread seems to be hard enough for BYU-BOY considering he’s a student, plus obviously having his own life away from here. Why don’t we let him post his answers to the issues and then respond to them. Adding new issues only makes it harder to get the BYU’s position on the original ones.

I tried starting a thread on the Great Apostacy but no LDS responded. So for now, I guess I will pose my questions wherever I think I can get a response.