The Truth about the Mormons from a Devout Mormon

[PaulDupre]

BYU-BOY:

Oftentimes one will hear these “anti-mormons” quote the late apostle, Elder Bruce R. McConkie, in his “Mormon Doctrine” where he wrote that Jesus was begotten and conceived in the natural way as sons are by their mortal fathers. What Elder McConkie was putting forth was a denial of the ancient agnostic heresy that Jesus was not begotten and conceived in the womb, but rather that he suddenly appeared as a man without going through the process of mortality.

Why would McConkie bother refuting an “ancient heresy” which had not existed for nearly two millenia? What nonsense! Why argue against something that no one believes?

What the late apostle also denied was the modern heresy that Jesus was the Son of God only in a figurative sense and in the flesh was the son Joseph and Mary.

Actually, if you look at the context of McConkie’s entire argument, he is refuting mainstream Christianity, which has always held that the blessed virgin “was found to be with child of the Holy Ghost”. You can see in my prior posts how Mormon leaders have always denied this basic biblical fact.

God bless,
Paul

 

[bengeorge]

Is there no Mormon equivalent of “The Catechism of the Catholic Church”, i.e. an official and systematic compendium of teachings?

It would seem that a church that claimed authority would have authored something authoritative about its teachings.

If such a document exists, please start using it. The quotes and requotes don’t seem to clear much up.

 

[BYU-BOY]

PaulDupre:

Remember, BYU-BOY, I was an active Mormon for 11 years, during which time I served a full-time mission, was married in the temple, taught gospel doctrine class, taught Elder’s Quorum lessons, served as counselor to two bishops, etc, etc. I am very familiar with what the LDS Church taught up until 1986 when I had my name removed from the records of that Church.

You made the above statement in reference to my question on whether you could show me statements by LDS authorities that said “By ‘Virgin birth’, Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin.” You still did not answer the question. I acknowledge your past membership in the church. This gives me even more reason to see you as an uncreditible source. Judas was one of the origal Apostles. This being the case does not make him an valuable resourse on the Divine Sonship of Jesus Christ. Please just show me where you have found doctrine on your above statement

PaulDupre:

I am 50 years old and have lived through a period of LDS history that occurred before you were born. I think I know better than you do what was taught when I was in the Church prior to 1986. My fellow Mormons and I lived it every day.

Brother Dupre you may have lived through a time frame that I did not.That does not mean you are right on your assumptions. I would be very grateful if you stuck to stating your proof.

PaulDupre:

BYU-BOY, have you asked some older people - bishops, stake presidents, etc if they were taught and believed these doctrines? You are living in a dream-world not shared by the majority of knowledgable LDS.

I am in my final year at BYU studying Philosophy with a religious emphasis. I have study out these questions for several years. I have even taken my 10 questions to some of the leading academic and Apologitic scholars of the LDS church. We are all aware of your beliefs and misunderstandings. However, being aware of them is a far cry to accepting these false accusations

 

[Sophie]

BYU-BOY:

Now onto our next question. I will try to be more clear with this question and follow the format that many have asked me to follow.

Question: Was Jesus a polygamist?
Official Church Doctrine: No official statement has been given.
Common LDS belief: Yes
Does BYU BOY believe it: Yes

:
If the LDS church declared that Jesus was a polygamist, I would not find this doctrine to be offensive. We can see Abraham, Jacob, King David and King Solomon all practiced polygamy. This also addresses the question about a popular LDS belief that Jesus was married.

BYU-Boy, You state you do not find polygamy doctrine offfensive. You specifically point out King David and King Solomon practicing polygamy to support your point. The only problem with this opinion is the Book of Mormon totally disagrees with you. The Book of Mormon condemns polygamy and Kings David and Solomon for being polygamists:

Jacob 3:5 - …for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord which it was given unto our father, that they should have save it were one wife and concubines they should have none
and there should not be whoredomes commited among them.

Mosiah 11:2 - For behold he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin and do that which was abominble in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredomes and all manner of wickedness.

Jacob 1:15 - The people of Nephi, under the reign of the second King, began to grow hard in their hearts and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon his son.

And in a few other places the Book of Mormon condemns the practice of polygamy and David and Solomon for practicing polygamy!

So, BYU-Boy, are you right in approving polygamy or is the Book of Mormon right in condemning it?

Of course, Joe Smith, in his Doctrine and Covenants book, went on to say in D&C132 that polygamy was commanded by God and that David and Solomon were good people for practicing it. So Smith condemned polygamy in one book, then commanded it in his next book.

 

[Sophie]

All this talk of Jesus’ conception brings me to another question. Where was Jesus born?

All Christians know, of course, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. So why does the Book of Mormon get it wrong and state that Jesus was born in Jerusalem??? (Alma 7:10)

Does this mean Mormons sing, “Oh Little Town of Jerusalem”???

Of course, this is just one more error amongst the thousands of errors that the Book of Mormon has had and still contains.

 

[uniChristian]

BYU-BOY:

I will add that to my list to answer.

Just as I thought. Your fig leafs are not a sufficient covering for your sin. Jesus is the Lamb of God and he is God. So who do you say Jesus is, a created bieng or God? Deep in you heart you must know Mormonism is a lie of the devil.

 

[BYU-BOY]

I know that I am throwing out an answer to another question but I am not going to have anytime this week to respond to more questions. So, I hope that you will bear with me as I try to get all the questions answered and still manage to pass my classes.

Question: The Bible is a polluted and insufficient guide from which the truth has been deliberately removed.
Official Church Doctrine: False
Common LDS belief: Mainly False
BYU BOY’s Belief: Very False

Explanation:
There is a common assumption among many that the LDS Church believes that the Bible is basically in error. I hope to show you that this is most definitely untrue and that there is insurmountable evidence to show such. LDS acceptance of the Bible as revealed scripture is clearly set forth in one of the Church’s thirteen basic statements of belief, the eighth Article of Faith, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;” (to get a quick overview of what is considered LDS doctrine go to (http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1)

Joseph Smith was once asked if the Saints believed in the Bible. He replied, “If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do.” He was then asked how the Saints differ from other sects. He replied that they differ “In that we believe the Bible, and all the other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible, and their creeds.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (comp.) (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1979) p. 119

Joseph Smith frequently called the Bible “the record of truth” and the “sacred volume,” but added: “I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (comp.) (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1979) p. 327 And also, “Our latitude and longitude can be determined in the original Hebrew with far greater accuracy than in the English version.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (comp.) (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1979) p. 290

Concerning the Latter-day Saints’ regard for the Bible, Brigham Young has said: “We are believers in the Bible, and to our unshaken faith in its precepts, doctrine, and prophecy, may be attributed the strangeness of our course, and the unwarranted conduct of many towards this people.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 1 p. 273 He also said, “We have a holy reverence for a belief in the Bible,” **Journal of Discourses, vol. 14 p.113 ** and unequivocally asserted that “The Bible is true.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 14 p. 226

Continued . . .

 

[BYU-BOY]

Part 2

Question: The Bible is a polluted and insufficient guide from which the truth has been deliberately removed.
Official Church Doctrine: False
Common LDS belief: Mainly False
BYU BOY’s Belief: Very False

Brigham Young also commented, “But I want to know if we agree with the teachings of the bible, in our belief and practice. The Latter-day Saints believe in doing just what the Lord said in that book.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 1 p. 239 And also, “We as Latter-day Saints have confessed before Heaven, before the heavenly hosts, and before the inhabitants of the earth, that we really believe the scriptures as they are given to us, according to the best understanding and knowledge that we have of the translation, and the spirit of the Old and New Testament.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 12 p. 227 He also said, “You say, I have thrown away the New Testament. I say I have not. You say, I have sacrificed it for the Book of Mormon. I say, I have not. I have acknowledged the Bible from the time I could be taught by my parents to revere it. They taught me that it was the sacred word of God. And as far as it could be translated correctly from the Hebrew and Greek languages, it is given to us as pure as it possibly could be given. The Bible is mine, and I am not prepared to have you rob me of it without my consent. The doctrine in it is mine, which I firmly believe." Journal of Discourses, vol. 1 p. 238

The LDS Church believes totally that the Bible is the word of God. But what did Joseph Smith and Brigham Young mean when they said “as far as it is translated correctly?” They proclaimed their belief that the Bible was without error of any sort in the original manuscripts but that certain errors have crept in after—the errors of translators and copyists. Of course, adversaries against the church distort this reservation, depicting it as evidence that Mormons don’t use or trust the Bible. In truth, we fully trust the Bible, and what few errors have crept into it are not regarded as significant.

The late Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “We are all aware that there are errors in the Bible due to faulty translations and ignorance on the part of translators, but the hand of the Lord has been over this volume of scripture nevertheless, and it is remarkable that it has come down to us in the excellent condition in which we find it.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1956), vol. 3 p. 191

*Continued . . . *

 

[BYU-BOY]

Part 3
Conclusion

Question: The Bible is a polluted and insufficient guide from which the truth has been deliberately removed.
Official Church Doctrine: False
Common LDS belief: Mainly False
BYU BOY’s Belief: Very False

Modern scholarship has shown that the Latter-day Saints have taken an appropriate position in their assertion that the Bible is correct except for the minor errors of translators and copyists. In the late 19th century it was discovered that ancient manuscripts of the Bible varied in places and different readings. It was conceded that there were indeed errors in the various copies which have been found to date. Some Christian scholars formed the mistaken opinion that the errors were most likely in the originals too, and drew the unwarranted conclusion that the Bible contains much myth and cannot be trusted. This belief is held by many of the liberal Christians of our day. Since the world doesn’t have the original manuscripts, many of the liberal theologians feel that we have no evidence that the original writings contained errors. Other Christian scholars, with evangelical or fundamentalist backgrounds, took the more correct view that even though the copies may contain errors, the originals which were directly inspired by God do not contain errors.

The International Council on Biblical Inerrancy has said: “Inerrancy means that when all the facts are known, the Scriptures, in their original autographs and properly interpreted, will be shown to be wholly true in everything they teach, whether that teaching has to do with doctrine, history, science, geography, geology, or other disciplines or knowledge.” James Montgomery Boice, Does Inerrancy Matter?, (Oakland, California: International Council on Biblical Inerrancy, 1979) p. 12 It also said,

“Finally, there are people who say, ‘Since translations of the Bible differ, and since both cannot be right, inerrancy is a mistaken notion.’ The misunderstanding here is to suppose that inerrancy applies to the copies of the original documents or to translations of these documents. Actually, it applies only to the original manuscripts, called autographs. James Montgomery Boice, Does Inerrancy Matter?, (Oakland, California: International Council on Biblical Inerrancy, 1979) p. 12

These statements reflect the views commonly held by most Latter-day Saints. The assertion of those against the LDS Church who state that Mormons regard the Bible as basically in error is a misrepresentation and distortion of Latter-day Saint doctrine and belief.

 

[Sophie]

QUOTE=BYU-BOY The Bible is a polluted and insufficient guide from which the truth has been deliberately removed.

The truth is rather, Joseph Smith’s writings are polluted and insufficient guides from which the truth has been deliberately removed.

The Book of Mormon states Jesus was born in Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem? (Alma 7:10)

The Book of Mormon switches Moses words for St. Peters by mistake? (3 Nephi 23-27). Check out Moses words (Deutoronomy 18-15) and St. Peter’s words paraphrasing Moses (Acts 3:22). Joe Smith had Jesus saying these were Moses words when they were actually spoken by St. Peter.

 

[PaulDupre]

bengeorge:

Is there no Mormon equivalent of “The Catechism of the Catholic Church”, i.e. an official and systematic compendium of teachings?

It would seem that a church that claimed authority would have authored something authoritative about its teachings.

That’s what Elder McConkie’s *Mormon Doctrine * was to my generation of LDS.
Grace to you,
Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

BYU-BOY:

You made the above statement in reference to my question on whether you could show me statements by LDS authorities that said “By ‘Virgin birth’, Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin.” You still did not answer the question. Please just show me where you have found doctrine on your above statement

Apparently you missed post #77 above.

 

[Sophie]

Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 9:18), “I am the Light of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.” Why would Jesus speak Greek to these people?

“And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of word, and of iron, and of copper,and of silver, and of precious ores, WHICH WERE IN GREAT ABUNDANCE. And I, Nephi, did build a temple: and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things: FOR THEY WERE NOT TO BE FOUND UPON THE LAND, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple”. (2 Nephi 5, 15-16). One minute they have plenty, the next they don’t!

"And behold, it is wisdom in God that we should obtain these records, that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers…(1 Nephi 3:19) This obviously didn’t work, according the Joe Smith they ended up speaking reformed Egyptian.

These are just a few of the many mistakes in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Exporter]

BYU-BOY, I will not post on this thread again. At first I thought you were asking a question, but now I find that you are useing this site as a vehicle to further you egocentric religious beliefs.

You have ignored the thrust of DUPREE’S questions. And now you blather about your own misunderstandings of Mormanism.
Viya con Dios, Brother.

 

[Sophie]

Joe Smith said, "I told the brethern that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by it’s precepts than by any other book. But the BOM contradicts Mormonism’s most dearly held teachings. For instance,

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones? If you said it doesn’t your right. The BOM never says God has a body of flesh bones. On more than one occasion it clearly teaches that God is a God of spirit (Alma 18:2-5, 24-28: Alma 22:9-ll, Alma 31:15)

Where in the BOM does it teach that God is married in heaven? If you said it doesn’t your right. The BOM never teaches God is married.

Where in the BOM does it teach that men can become gods? It doesn’t. The BoM never teaches that men can become gods.

Where in the BoM does it teach that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers? If you said it doesn’t, you’re right. The BoM never teaches that Jesus and Lucifer are brother.

Where in the BoM does it teach that a person can loose his salvation if he is not baptized on behalf of dead relatives? It doesn’t. In fact the BoM teaches if a person dies in his sins, the devil has sealed him and this is the final state of the wicked. (Alma 34:34,35)

Where in the BoM does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood? It doesn’t. The BoM never mentions either the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthoods.

These are just some of the contradictions to the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints contained in the Book of Mormon, which Joe Smith claimed to be “the most correct book on earth”.

 

[dumspirospero]

I am sorry BYU-BOY but LDS is full of heresies and blasphemies and it is not a Christian religion…didn’t know if you knew this already, but I thought I would skip a dissertation rebuking all of your fallacious beliefs and skip right to the point. LDS is not a Christian religion regardless of the sales speech you give your converts about the different levels of heaven, polygamy, etc…go sale crazy somewhere else.

BYU-BOY:

Now onto our next question. I will try to be more clear with this question and follow the format that many have asked me to follow.

Question: Was Jesus a polygamist?
Official Church Doctrine: No official statement has been given.
Common LDS belief: Yes
Does BYU BOY believe it: Yes

Explanation:
If the LDS church declared that Jesus was a polygamist, I would not find this doctrine to be offensive. We can see Abraham, Jacob, King David and King Solomon all practiced polygamy. This also addresses the question about a popular LDS belief that Jesus was married. We can find that many scriptures point to the fact that Jesus was married. We see in Mark 6:2, where it states that Jesus taught in the synagogue. That was against Jewish law and custom and would never have been tolerated unless he was married. John, chapter 11 tells how Lazarus died while Jesus was away. Mary sat in her house until Jesus returned and called her out. This is found in verse 28. Under Jewish custom, a woman in mourning stays indoors until her husband calls her out.

One might concede that Jesus was married but find it unbiblical to believe that Jesus had more then one wife. We look at the 24th chapter of Luke where we can see that certain women came to anoint the body of Jesus, following his crucifixion, with burial spices. In verse 10 it states that this included Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and the other Mary. Under Jewish custom, it was the widows’ responsibility to anoint the body of their dead husbands.

Not only that, but in Hebrews 1:8 Paul quotes Psalms 45:6 as applying to Jesus: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” In Psalms 45:6 through 9 we further read “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia,out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. Kings’ daughters were among thy honourable* women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in* gold of Ophir.” (italics added) So the passage Paul quotes as referring to Jesus speaks of him having wives.

I refer you back to Brother Dupre’s quotes from LDS leaders about Christ being married and polygamy being practiced. I also tried to dig through my books to find a certain quote by Joseph Smith but couldn’t find it.

 

[BYU-BOY]

Exporter

I am sorry that I have offended you. I have claimed at the beginning that I am not the complete source to LDS Doctrine. When starting this thread my objective was to answer Katholikos questions that he contributed to the LDS faith. Little did I know that I would get bombarded with so many new questions that I could easily spend weeks on aswering each and every one of them.

It is for this reason that I have not continually answered everyone’s questions (though I really would like to). There is only BJ and me that believe LDS teachings on this discussion board and thousands of you that don’t.

Again, I am sorry that you feel that I am not doing a sufficient job of explaining Mormonism. I definitely should be focusing on my studies and not allowing myself to be distracted on my goal to graduate.

Give me some time on deciding if I should hand over the reigns to someone that may have more time on their hands. I know that Brother Dupre or Jay Katholikos would more then be willing to finish up my last 7 questions and probably even have time to answer all the other questions that have been stirring around in this thread. However, I lament in this idea because you truly are not getting an accurate view of our beliefs.

BYU BOY

 

[Sophie]

uniChristian:

. Mormonism is a lie of the devil.

Truer words were never spoken!!!

 

[PaulDupre]

BYU-BOY:

The Bible is a polluted and insufficient guide from which the truth has been deliberately removed.
Official Church Doctrine: False
Common LDS belief: Mainly False
BYU BOY’s Belief: Very False

Book of Mormon: Very True

1 Nephi 13:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

The assertion of those against the LDS Church who state that Mormons regard the Bible as basically in error is a misrepresentation and distortion of Latter-day Saint doctrine and belief.

So the LDS don’t believe in the Book of Mormon? Funny, Joseph Smith declared that the BOM is “the most correct of any book on earth.” (History of the Church, 4:461)

The above passage claims that the bible we have now is not the same bible written by the prophets and apostles. Many of the “plain and precious parts” were taken away by the “great and abominable Church”. Why? “that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.” (1 Ne:13:27)

Verse 29 states that those who believe the bible with the plain and precious parts deliberately removed by the great and abominable church stumble so that Satan has great power over them.

Continued…

 

[rich123456]

If you read this statement by Joseph Smith below and then read what our Catechism says about the fallen Angel the parallel is breathtaking. The fallen angel Satan is Jealous of Christ. In the LDS Faith the devils goal is to show that this faith can do a better job than all the others, but mostly a better job than Christ.and the Church he established. I know this sounds pretty harsh but I can not be honest to myseld if I try to dilute it. It is fact.When a Mormon comes face to face with this a very large Cross enters into their lives. But it is more than worth it.

I do not want to single out Joseph Smith in this only,… as we all have this fallen nature. We as Catholics can be aware of it a bit more than others. This is why our faith is all about healing. Knowing we need the great doctor.

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409- Joseph Smith:

The Catechism on the Fall.
II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS** **
[391](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/391.htm’) Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

[392](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/392.htm’) Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably *rejected *God and his reign. **We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.”**270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275