The Truth about the Mormons from a Devout Mormon

[Katholikos]

BYU-BOY,

Don’t try to lay your unChristian attitude toward polygamy (actually, polygyny – one husband, more than one wive) at the feet of the Jews. The Talmud teaches that monogamy is the ideal. In most Jewish communities, polygamy has not existed in any significant form for thousands of years. Rabbinic Judaism banned polygyny in the 11th century.

As one rabbi said, if God had approved polygyny, he would have created Adam and Eve and Joan. Polygyny is antithetical to both both Christianity and Judaism.

Just because polygyny existed in ancient Israel doesn’t mean that God approved it, any more than He approved divorce under the Mosaic Law. Jesus said, “. . .from the beginning it was not so.”

To believe that Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God Himself, was a polygamist, is absolutely abhorrent. The sound you hear is me retching.

Mormonism should stop the pretense that it’s Christian. It doesn’t have a trace of Christianity in it, except that it uses the vocabulary of Christian doctrine and twists the meaning beyond all recognition.

JMJ Jay

 

[PaulDupre]

Bible corruption continued…

What do the modern LDS prophets and apostles say?

President Ezra Taft Benson wrote of

“the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text”
(Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg. 53).

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., popular LDS author and son of the tenth president of the church, said

“The early ‘Apostate Fathers’ did not think it was wrong to tamper with inspired scripture. If any scripture seemed to endanger their viewpoint, it was altered, transplanted or completely removed from the Biblical text” (Religious Truths Defined, p.175).

Apostle Mark E. Peterson casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible and states forcefully that the corruption was intentional:

“Many insertions were made, some of them ‘slanted’ for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated”
(As Translated Correctly, p.4).

“It is evident then that many of the ‘plain and precious’ things were omitted from the Bible by failure to choose all of the authentic books for inclusion, and by deliberate changes, deletions and forgeries …”
(As Translated Correctly, p.14).

The encyclopedia of Mormonism:

“Thus, the elements of mistranslation, incompleteness, and other errors weaken the Bible”
(Encyclopedia of Mormonism , Vol. 1, Bible).

Again we can see from this small sample of quotes how the conviction that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy starts with The Book of Mormon (“the most correct book on earth” and “the keystone of our religion”) and continues to pervade Mormon thinking and writing throughout their history.

If the LDS heirarchy is attempting to distance themselves from these teachings in the face of recent evidence that debunks them, all well and good. But do not insult the intelligence of those who lived through these teachings for decades by denying that they were ever authoritatively taught.
Grace to you all,
Paul

 

[Katholikos]

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

Paul,

BYU-BOY denies that this “abominable church” in the Book of Mormon refers to the Catholic Church. But he failed to answer the question, if it isn’t the only Church that existed for the first thousand years of Christianity, then which Church is it? He says McConkie got in trouble for writing that it was the Catholic Church. I think McConkie wrote true, approved doctrine, but the authorities later protested 'cause they were attempting to morph Mormonism into a mainstream Christian denomination. How close am I to right?
JMJ Jay

 

[rcwhiteh]

Everyone is going to have to forgive me, but I’m getting dizzy trying to keep up with this thread. Folks keep interrupting BYU-BOY, and God love him, he’s refraining from ad hominem attacks while trying to defend himself from the same from us.

I’m going to make some suggestions, and I’ll appeal to a forum administrator for help (if one is listening).

1. 
   *]BYU-BOY, start over - this time, write out your responses to the questions you plan to answer before you post them, then post them all at once.
   *]Everyone else - if you have something you want to direct to BYU-BOY, please send him a private message. Keep incidental comments off-line.
   *]People responding to BYU-BOY’s postings should respond to the entire posting as much as possible, Quote him - in context - and give point-by-point refutations.
   *]Lastly, quit calling the gentleman crazy or any other uncharitable thing. :tsktsk: He holds his beliefs to be true, just as I held my Baptist upbringing to be true. I’ve learned the truth, not by being browbeaten, but by love and courtesy. We owe him the same opportunity.
   
   Katholikos, dumsperospero and others - you are obviously scholars and pretty good apologists for the Catholic faith. Let us follow the example of Christ, Who taught with love and compassion. Let BYU-BOY speak; respond to him with courtesy. Refute his positions charitably but uncompromisingly; be true to your Faith as he is to his, BUT KNOCK OFF THE VENOM or by little green apples, I’ll report you for abusive postings myself.
   
   If he comes to see the truth that lives in the Catholic Faith, welcome him; if he doesn’t, wish him well. Whatever you do, be the Christians you say you are.
   
   BYU-BOY, if you agree, you should ask an administrator to delete this thread, and then start over. Give it another shot.

 

[mark_a]

Hello BYU-BOY,

Do you think Steve Young will be voted into the Pro football hall of fame first time up?

 

[PaulDupre]

Katholikos:

BYU-BOY denies that this “abominable church” in the Book of Mormon refers to the Catholic Church. But he failed to answer the question, if it isn’t the only Church that existed for the first thousand years of Christianity, then which Church is it?
JMJ Jay

Hi Jay,
Apparently, the censure of McConkie was strictly a PR move, because these same sentiments have been taught within the walls of the LDS Church since the days of Joseph Smith. They understood perfectly well who “the great and abominable church” is:
Note: John Taylor was the third “prophet” of the Mormon Church

"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.’

• Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811

And now they want to be called Christians!

"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their “long robes,” among the Jews, are equally included in their mother’s family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God.

• Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939

“It was the apostate Catholics that first originated the idea and by them the fatal delusion has been handed down from generation to generation; and all the children that she has brought forth, or that have left her communion, have, more or less, imbibed the same great features of the apostasy. Well might the Revelator John, speaking by the spirit of prophecy, call her “the Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth!” It is her true name, for all the “harlots” which she has brought forth have walked in the footsteps of their “Mother” in declaring against new revelation, and in pretending that ancient revelation is a sufficient rule of faith. It is to be expected that as is the Mother, so will be her Harlot daughters. …In the meantime, another harlot daughter of the Catholics–the Lutherans…”

• Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.40

Continued…

 

[PaulDupre]

Whore of Babylon continued…

all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."

She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, “The whore of all the earth,” making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches… But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."

• Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346

“**The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, ** after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven.”

• Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85

Remember if you will that The Journal of Discourses and *Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon * are published by the LDS Church.

Perhaps we could discard the writings of Apostle Orson Pratt, Apostle Orson Hyde, Apostle Bruce McConkie, Legrand Richards and others as non-authoritative, were it not for the similar writings of John Taylor, Brigham Young and other “prophets” who indeed spoke for the Church in general.
Is there any doubt that these church leaders understood the meaning of the “great and abominable church” mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

I can testify that these same sentiments against Catholicism in particular and Christianity in general were taught freely and frequently when I was LDS.
Comments?
Paul

 

[BJ_Colbert]

O mi gosh,

You are really in some kind of pain and I feel so bad for you, but no one can help your suffering.  Keep digging and hating and you will never find peace.  I would suggest you get on your knees and ask the Lord to give you peace and take the poison from your heart.  
If the things you say are true,( and I as a Mormon have no knowledge of these things). why would you want to bring those things up to cause discension among Mormons and Catholics? 
You asked in an earlier post what I considered hate with regards to Mormons.  What you have just written is the worst I have ever seen and as I said in 62 years of being Mormon, except for 20 years being out of the church, I have never heard such a diatrabe of hatred, as I have heard from you.
Your venomous writings make me shrink with fear and the blood drains out of me, and I feel nauseous.  The hatred is so apparent in what you have written.  I am so sorry for you, and anyone who would believe you.
 As the previous writer said where is your Christianity?

 

[TommieW]

BJ Colbert:

O mi gosh,

You are really in some kind of pain and I feel so bad for you, but no one can help your suffering. Keep digging and hating and you will never find peace. I would suggest you get on your knees and ask the Lord to give you peace and take the poison from your heart.
If the things you say are true,( and I as a Mormon have no knowledge of these things). why would you want to bring those things up to cause discension among Mormons and Catholics?
You asked in an earlier post what I considered hate with regards to Mormons. What you have just written is the worst I have ever seen and as I said in 62 years of being Mormon, except for 20 years being out of the church, I have never heard such a diatrabe of hatred, as I have heard from you.
Your venomous writings make me shrink with fear and the blood drains out of me, and I feel nauseous. The hatred is so apparent in what you have written. I am so sorry for you, and anyone who would believe you.
As the previous writer said where is your Christianity?

BJ,

I have been watching this thread and admire the fact that you and BYU-Boy may be sincere in your beleifs, but have to admit that the eviidence is overwhelming of what LDS has put forth as teaching and how “off the mark” it is, to say the least. Catholic doctrine develops and grows–Mormon “doctrine” changes to suit the times and the goal of becoming mainstream. The fact of the matter is that LDS has only worried about appearing Christian for 2 reasons–mainstream acceptance of its discordant teachings, which it adapts and changes to appear les “cultish”, and political expediency, as the true Christian population of the U.S. gains political footing, LDS wants a share, but can only accomplish that through appearing Christian. The problem is that you can paint an elephant any color you want, but you can’t make it a mouse–LDS doctrine and teaching is still not Christian.
I do not doubt the sincerity of your or BYU-Boy’s beliefs, and I understand the defense of it, but bottomline is that you have been told one thing, while your “doctrine” teaches another. Who are we to believe? As any examination of Catholic doctrine would show what a Catholic beleives–or should believe–the examination of LDS doctrine tells us what LDS believes.
At best you are being misled.

God Bless

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Well, there you go…just where we started, Catholics like yourself know more about Mormons than Mormons do. I have been attending Catholic Mass for almost 6 years every Sunday and also, attending my own church every Sunday with my husband who is staunch died in the wool Catholic and will never be anything else. He believes the Book of Mormon is true and he believes that I believe in the same God he believes in.
Whatever you think that we believe, is only what you will believe till your dying day and no one will ever convince you otherwise. It is OK because it was not BYU-Boy’s or my purpose to convert you. It was only to explain what we believe and what we have been taught, and that is to follow Jesus Christ our Lord and redeemer, and love and serve our fellowman to the best of our ability. If that is not considered Christian then I guess I don’t know what Christian is.
Our 13th Article of Faith is: "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed we may say we follow the admonition of Paul–We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Every LDS child memorizes the “Articles Of Faith” before they are 8 years old and those articles have not changed one bit since Joseph Smith wrote them.
Some LDS have written different interpretations of what we believe, but it is strictly their interpretations, not church doctrine.
Just as my husband’s Catholic priest told him he could not go to confession because of his divorce from his former wife. The other priest of his parish, said for him not to pay any attention to the first priest, that he was more of a traditionalist and things had changed. So, if my husband wants to go to confession he must make an appointment with the priest that is more modern in his views. Am I wrong to say this seems to be a change from the old
beliefs of the Catholic Church? My husband has been dealing with his divorce and being unworthy to take the communion for 25 years and all of a sudden two months ago he was completely forgiven, and has all priviledges restored. You obviously just have to talk to the right priest.
I just have to say if an example of Christianity is what I have heard from the mouths of some of the representatives of the Catholic Church in this forum then I am certainly glad I am not one of THEM. I make an exception of Chris-wa and Tdknick who are true gentlemen, and a couple of others who do represent the Catholic Church in a fair and friendly manner.
Thanks to you for your courtesy and good nature.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

BJ Colbert:

Stephen-Maguire:

People in glass houses should’nt throw stones > kosnoff.com/construction/

No problem, no harm done if I haven’t left the Church at this stage in my life then I’m never going too, especially with my nightmare childhood experiences, but those shall remain private.
How many people were left at the foot of the Cross when Jesus was dying, not many, the woman that some say is of no importance, His mother, and John and a few others.
Strike the shepherd and the sheep are scattered, anyway like I say to some people that like to point the finger.
The next time you stand in front of a mirror, point to it and see who points back.
So good luck and God Bless, and may you be in Heaven half an hour before the devil knows your dead. :tiphat:

 

[SDA2RC]

BJ Colbert:

It was only to explain what we believe and what we have been taught, and that is to follow Jesus Christ our Lord and redeemer, and love and serve our fellowman to the best of our ability. If that is not considered Christian then I guess I don’t know what Christian is.

BJ,
I consider myself fairly familiar with the LDS Church. My family was LDS and many still are, almost all of my friends and co-workers are LDS, my ex-wife and her family were LDS, over 90% of the small community where I grew up was LDS, and your last statement in the quote above, in my opinion, hits the nail on the head for most LDS Church members that I have come into contact with.

While on the surface this may seem as an insult, it is not meant that way, it is meant as merely a statement of observation. You see, being a Christian IS NOT merely claiming to follow Christ and serve our fellow men. Many people in other Non-Christian religions claim to follow God and server fellow men too… it does not make one Christian or one’s religion true. The first problem is… which Christ? The Christ of the Mormons, the Christ of the Catholics, the Christ of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc…etc…etc All of the religions that I mentioned have a different view of Christ, yet there is only one truth about Christ.

For a member of the LDS Church to claim to be a “Christian” is just simply not true in the historic normal sense of the word. It would be like me claiming to be LDS, even though I reject the authority of the Presidency of the LDS Church, reject the legitimacy of the scriptures that are unique to the LDS Church, reject Temple Marriage and ordinances, reject LDS Baptism, reject LDS Priesthood, and reject the LDS Concept of God. If I openly rejected all of these things (which I do) and yet go around telling people I am Mormon… am I being honest? No… I would be misrepresenting Mormonism and Christianity both!!

The same is true of Mormons, who by their teachings and beliefs, reject many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity. To reject the doctrines of Christianity, then claim to be a Christian, is in my opinion, misrepresenting the truth.

This is not to say that wonderful and Christ-like people are not LDS, many are… however, there is a difference between claiming to believe in and following one of the many renditions of Christ, and being Christian.

Brandon

 

[SDA2RC]

BJ Colbert:

Just as my husband’s Catholic priest told him he could not go to confession because of his divorce from his former wife. The other priest of his parish, said for him not to pay any attention to the first priest, that he was more of a traditionalist and things had changed. So, if my husband wants to go to confession he must make an appointment with the priest that is more modern in his views. Am I wrong to say this seems to be a change from the old
beliefs of the Catholic Church? My husband has been dealing with his divorce and being unworthy to take the communion for 25 years and all of a sudden two months ago he was completely forgiven, and has all priviledges restored. You obviously just have to talk to the right priest.

One priest not being faithful to church teachings hardly constitutes a “change from the old beliefs of the Catholic Church”. If there is a conflict between what two priests are telling your husband, he should go to the head pastor of the Church or contact the Diocese Tribunal office.

If he doesn’t care and just wants to go with the priest who tells him what he wants to hear (and I am not saying that this is the case) then I suppose it doesnt matter anyway

Brandon

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

BYU-BOY:

Exporter

I am sorry that I have offended you.

I don’t think you’ve offended anyone here, and hopefully, none of us has offended you.

I have claimed at the beginning that I am not the complete source to LDS Doctrine.

Is there a complete source to LDS doctrine? It seems to change with time.

When starting this thread my objective was to answer Katholikos questions that he contributed to the LDS faith. Little did I know that I would get bombarded with so many new questions that I could easily spend weeks on aswering each and every one of them.

With all due respect, BYU BOY, several people here have asked you for simple answers.
Some here asked that you keep your answer to a simple yes or no, or one word or one sentence answer.
The Truth should not be so difficult to define.

It is for this reason that I have not continually answered everyone’s questions (though I really would like to). There is only BJ and me that believe LDS teachings on this discussion board and thousands of you that don’t.

But thousands haven’t weighed in on this thread. It’s just a discussion between a half dozen or so Catholics, from what I’ve gathered reading this thread, and a couple of Mormons. Even then, I think some of the Catholics are married to Mormons, are they not (I was skimming that part!)

Again, I am sorry that you feel that I am not doing a sufficient job of explaining Mormonism.

Now, now, don’t play the pity card. No one is accusing you of falling short. We believe that Mormonism falls short all on it’s own merits, or lack thereof.

I definitely should be focusing on my studies and not allowing myself to be distracted on my goal to graduate.

I understand that it must take considerable time to research these explanations. Yet, don’t they benefit you at all? When I’ve spent much time researching and defending my Church’s doctrines, I’ve at least advanced in knowledge and understanding of my Church’s teachings…

Give me some time on deciding if I should hand over the reigns to someone that may have more time on their hands.

Oh, I’d love to welcome newcomers, but would hate to see you leave. Invite anyone here you’d like, but hopefully you won’t then feel that your posts are no longer appreciated.

I know that Brother Dupre or Jay Katholikos would more then be willing to finish up my last 7 questions and probably even have time to answer all the other questions that have been stirring around in this thread.

They are well researched. You’d have a tough time refuting all of their exposes of Mormon doctrines.

However, I lament in this idea because you truly are not getting an accurate view of our beliefs.

Then, you are left to give us an accurate view. But then, when you do, you also disclaim yourself as not an authority on LDS doctrine…so it becomes rather circular.
Are the views of the average everyday practicing Mormon somehow not in sync with LDS doctrine?
Why aren’t you qualified to give an accurate view of your beliefs? Or are you? And if you are, then I think you should…

BYU BOY

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

BJ Colbert:

Just as my husband’s Catholic priest told him he could not go to confession because of his divorce from his former wife. The other priest of his parish, said for him not to pay any attention to the first priest, that he was more of a traditionalist and things had changed. So, if my husband wants to go to confession he must make an appointment with the priest that is more modern in his views. Am I wrong to say this seems to be a change from the old
beliefs of the Catholic Church? My husband has been dealing with his divorce and being unworthy to take the communion for 25 years and all of a sudden two months ago he was completely forgiven, and has all priviledges restored. You obviously just have to talk to the right priest.

Wow. Didn’t alarms go off in your husband’s head? Didn’t common reason tell him that one or both of these priests must be giving our misinformation, and that he is duty bound to find out which answer is True?
The Church hasn’t changed Her doctrines.
But you can find a person, priest or otherwise, who will water down whatever doctrine he feels makes himself uncomfortable.
The Church’s doctrines won’t change.
Your husband should ask the priest to see some official Church documentation that permits him to return to the sacraments, before partaking of the Eucharist while not properly disposed to do so.
Some priests, it seems, would rather make everyone comfortable, than to shepherd their souls.
Church Teaching is quite clear and readily available. I hope your husband does some searching for truthful answers.
Priests are not permitted to change Church doctrines to suit their fancies. This clergyman, if he is doing as you say, may be doing a disservice to countless souls…

 

[PaulDupre]

BJ Colbert:

O mi gosh,

You are really in some kind of pain and I feel so bad for you, but no one can help your suffering.  Keep digging and hating and you will never find peace.  I would suggest you get on your knees and ask the Lord to give you peace and take the poison from your heart.  
If the things you say are true,( and I as a Mormon have no knowledge of these things). why would you want to bring those things up to cause discension among Mormons and Catholics? 
You asked in an earlier post what I considered hate with regards to Mormons.  What you have just written is the worst I have ever seen and as I said in 62 years of being Mormon, except for 20 years being out of the church, I have never heard such a diatrabe of hatred, as I have heard from you.
Your venomous writings make me shrink with fear and the blood drains out of me, and I feel nauseous.  The hatred is so apparent in what you have written.  I am so sorry for you, and anyone who would believe you.
 As the previous writer said where is your Christianity?

BJ,
All I did was quote your leaders. These quotes all came from books and magazines published by your church.
Isn’t it funny that as soon as anyone quotes the genuine teachings of the LDS prophets and apostles, it is called “hatred”?

You can quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church all you want and I will never accuse you of hate speech.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[tkdnick]

bengeorge:

Is there no Mormon equivalent of “The Catechism of the Catholic Church”, i.e. an official and systematic compendium of teachings?

It would seem that a church that claimed authority would have authored something authoritative about its teachings.

If such a document exists, please start using it. The quotes and requotes don’t seem to clear much up.

Gospel Principles seems to be the closest thing. I have read through this book and it seems to be set up similar to our Catechism as well.

 

[PaulDupre]

BYU-BOY:

I must also say that I am quite honored to have the imfamous Paul Dupre on this thread. You cannot go anywhere on the web with Anti-Mormon literature without seeing Paul’s name somewhere to be found.

Infamous? Please tell me where you have seen my name except here on the CA forums and on the Saint Joseph Communications Speaker’s Bureau (www.saintjoe.com). That is the total extent of my involvement discussing Mormonism.

I also participate in a private e-mail discussion forum between Catholics and Mormons. A few of the folks on this forum also participate in that group.

I have never participated in any anti-Mormon enterprise.

I have never been associated with anti-Mormon literature, nor have I ever quoted any of it. I only quote LDS sources.

Come on, BYU-BOY. Admit your lie.
Paul

 

[uniChristian]

Has Orthodox Christianity become apostate; are all their professors corrupt and all their creeds an abomination in God’s sight? Or has Joseph Smith and the LDS church been led astray by a lying spirit?

I ask you to take your Bible (Duay or King James) and examine the teachings of Joseph Smith and the LDS church and answer the above question. I believe poor Joe was helped by an angel all right, but it was an angel from our enemy, Satan. Lies from Mormon Doctrine; “The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind”. Mormon Doctrine, p. 193. Compare this lie to the canonized Word of God found in Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him”. Principalities, or powers, sorry Joe Smith, Jesus and Satan are not brothers. Satan is a fallen angel and therefore a created being. Jesus on the other hand is creator of all things including Satan, **and I might add God is not presently residing on the planet Kolob.

**

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

.
I just have to say if an example of Christianity is what I have heard from the mouths of some of the representatives of the Catholic Church in this forum then I am certainly glad I am not one of THEM. I make an exception of Chris-wa and Tdknick who are true gentlemen, and a couple of others who do represent the Catholic Church in a fair and friendly manner.
Thanks to you for your courtesy and good nature.

BJ -
Thanks for the nice compliment! It is my hope, that despite what I may personally think or believe about certain issues, that I may explain and defend those dotrines which the Catholic Church holds to be true in a charitable, Christ-like way so that all may understand and come to see the truth they contain. Hopefully this can be carried over to all other people on these forums that we all may discuss these topics in a charitable, Christ-like manner.