The Truth about the Mormons from a Devout Mormon

[tkdnick]

Katholikos:

Paul, how can Mormons be henotheists (belief in many gods but worship of only one of them) when they believe there are three gods of earth, Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost? They’re called a "Trinity’ but these three gods are separate and distinct and are united only in purpose. Do they worship only Heavenly Father? If they do, they are ignorning two of their earth gods. From my reading, and I’ve been told, they worship all three. Sounds like polytheism to me. :whacky: Thanks, Jay

My LDS friends have told me that they do, in fact, only worship God the father. This does seem to ignore the other 2 “gods” of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It’s also is contradictory to their belief that the Old Testament is the story of Jesus interacting with His people (not God). The OT is full of references to worshipping the Lord, who I have been told is not God the father, but Jesus. So if they then only worship God the father, they are contrary to the OT. And the NT of course where we see references to Jesus being worshipped and referenced as God.

This is all just stuff I have heard from my LDS friends and coworkers. Not sure if it is official doctrine or not.

 

[PaulDupre]

Katholikos:

Paul, how can Mormons be henotheists (belief in many gods but worship of only one of them) when they believe there are three gods of earth, Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost? They’re called a "Trinity’ but these three gods are separate and distinct and are united only in purpose. Do they worship only Heavenly Father? If they do, they are ignorning two of their earth gods. From my reading, and I’ve been told, they worship all three. Sounds like polytheism to me. :whacky: Thanks, Jay

Hi Jay,
I answered this on the “Joseph Smith’s Own Words” thread, but I will copy it here for convenience sake:

*Actually, Jay it’s even more complex than that. Mormons believe that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate gods, but they only worship God the Father.

They are not allowed to pray to or worship Jesus or the Holy Ghost (our spirit brothers), because these will be worshipped eventually by their own spirit children when they get their own planets. In LDS theology, worship is reserved only for one’s heavenly father, not heavenly brothers.

Mormons are especially discouraged from trying to develop a personal relationship with Jesus. One of the apostles (Peterson?) gave a really disturbing address about that at BYU. I have a copy of it somewhere.

This is even more strange in light of the Book of Mormon. In 3rd Nephi it says that when Jesus appeared to the Nephites and Lamanites, they worshipped him and prayed to him. But modern LDS are forbidden to do so. Then again the BoM was written several years before Joseph developed his multiple-god theology.

God bless,
Paul*

 

[Katholikos]

PaulDupre:

Hi Jay,
I answered this on the “Joseph Smith’s Own Words” thread, but I will copy it here for convenience sake:

Actually, Jay it’s even more complex than that. Mormons believe that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate gods, but they only worship God the Father.

*They are not allowed to pray to or worship Jesus or the Holy Ghost (our spirit brothers), because these will be worshipped eventually by their own spirit children when they get their own planets. In LDS theology, worship is reserved only for one’s heavenly father, not heavenly brothers. *

Mormons are especially discouraged from trying to develop a personal relationship with Jesus. One of the apostles (Peterson?) gave a really disturbing address about that at BYU. I have a copy of it somewhere.

This is even more strange in light of the Book of Mormon. In 3rd Nephi it says that when Jesus appeared to the Nephites and Lamanites, they worshipped him and prayed to him. But modern LDS are forbidden to do so. Then again the BoM was written several years before Joseph developed his multiple-god theology.

God bless,
Paul

Thank you, Paul! I’m grateful for the theology lesson. You are a blessing to me and to all who post at Catholic Answers. I’ll remember you before the altar of the Lord at Holy Mass in gratitude for your knowledge and wisdom and your willingness to share it. JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Tmaque:

Fair enough.

Jay

 

[Katholikos]

tkdnick:

My LDS friends have told me that they do, in fact, only worship God the father. This does seem to ignore the other 2 “gods” of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for this. Paul’s explanation answers all my questions, and perhaps yours, too. Much obliged. Jay

 

[tkdnick]

Katholikos:

Thanks for this. Paul’s explanation answers all my questions, and perhaps yours, too. Much obliged. Jay

Well, yes, Paul’s post did answer my personal question. But for the purpose of knowing official LDS doctrine, I think it would be beneficial to have quotes regarding this from LDS leaders.

…If I may suggest to all…it seems we have at least covered the 1st 3 questions BYU-Boy set out to explain…so why don’t we move on to the 4th subject…That the Catholic Church is the great whore of all churches.

 

[flameburns623]

I know that BYU-Boy asked specifically for a quote from an LDS Prophet regarding the question of whether or not Mary had intercourse with Heavenly Father. And it seems to me that Brigham Young, in the Journal of Discourses, expounded on exactly this topic. Perhaps I am thinking instead of the Adam-is-God doctrine, but does someone recollect the quote I am thinking of?

I do think that the most germaine question vis’a’vis BYU-Boy’s first response is “How does anyone distinguish between ‘unofficial speculation’ on the part of significant LDS leaders and true doctrine, which has since be repudiated and/or changed”? Because I believe that a vast number of quotes can be accumulated and cited here from virtually every leader of the LDS Church through the first part of the 20th century which would NOT jive particularly well with “official Mormonism” as it is presently being taught.

I second the thought that it is unlikely that Mormons are crypto-Catholics who are simply misunderstood, crypto-Christians whose choice of words may have been a bit pithy at times but who are in every way actually in full agreement with orthodox Christian teaching as it has been taughtsince the time of the Apostles. If in fact they ARE crypto-orthodox Christians–what need was there for the Restoration of the Church, the central mission of Joseph Smith?

BYU-Boy: I do applaud your patience in the face of sometimes antagonistic responses. BTW: I am a traditionalist Anglican (not a Roman Catholic), and a one-time convert to Mormonism. I think I am relatively comfortable with both the ‘public face’ of LDS doctrine as it has been taught for the past 20-30 years, and with many of the fair-and-reasonable criticisms of it based upon what has been taught in the not-so-ancient past. I have KNOWN Mormons who explicitly accept the Adam-is-God, God-had-intercourse-with-Mary theories. I have heard one LDS bishop–in Melchizedek Priesthood session, and with the Stake President present–speculate on the possibility of the ultimate salvation even of Lucifer, that it would in fact be the work of Mormons in the Celestial Kingdom to help to restore ALL of the lost souls in lower levels of the Afterlife. (His ideas were shot down, not by the Stake President, but by some of the older LDS members, among them a former bishop).

I mention this last incident not because it is in any way ‘official’ but to point out just how much speculative theology takes place among Mormons privately. The problem is ever and always going to be: which of these speculative explorations is ‘true’ doctrine and which are not. It began to look to me some many years ago as though LDS theology never really repudiates very many ideas, but holds at bay those ideas which might presently be unpopular, over against the day that those ideas might again be in vogue. Like a house built very much on shifting theological sand

 

[tkdnick]

flameburns623:

I know that BYU-Boy asked specifically for a quote from an LDS Prophet regarding the question of whether or not Mary had intercourse with Heavenly Father. And it seems to me that Brigham Young, in the Journal of Discourses, expounded on exactly this topic. Perhaps I am thinking instead of the Adam-is-God doctrine, but does someone recollect the quote I am thinking of?

Flame: Paul DuPre addressed this in posts 67-69 of this thread. He had quotes from BY and several others including prophets, apostles, etc.

 

[flameburns623]

tkdnick:

Flame: Paul DuPre addressed this in posts 67-69 of this thread. He had quotes from BY and several others including prophets, apostles, etc.

So he did. Thank you. Skimming the thread too rapidly may in fact be inadvisable. I should slow down before I make a comment. :banghead: On the other hand at least I am now ‘subscribed’’ to this thread and can keep abreast of what happens here. Perhaps I will have opportunity to make a few more faux pas, lol. :whacky:

 

[PaulDupre]

Chris-WA:

Hateful speech is when you call people names or demean them in some hurtful way. What Mr. Dupre has done is not hateful. What I think more likely is happening to you is that you feel your personal beliefs are being challenged and this is causing you pain. That doesn’t make his posts hateful. If you feel challenged by what he said, look up the stuff for yourself.

This is the other really frustrating thing about trying to dialog with Mormons:

They are taught from birth that everyone outside the LDS Church persecutes the Mormons - “Persecution is the heritage of the faithful”.

The reason we persecute them, so they are taught, is because only the Mormons have the truth and we gentiles who live in darkness just can’t stand it (in psychiatric parlance this is known as paranoia).

The other thing they are taught is that anyone who leaves the Mormon Church does so because of some serious moral problem - a grievous sin that drove away the Holy Ghost and left him open to Satan.

So whenever we disagree with them or point out what to us seem contradictions in their doctrines, they instantly accuse us of “persecution” and “hatred”. If that doesn’t work, then they try implying that we must be guilty of some serious sin that prevents us from recognizing the truth of Mormonism. This is calculated not only to hurt our feelings, but to intimidate us into silence.

Sheesh,
Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

PaulDupre:

Mormons are especially discouraged from trying to develop a personal relationship with Jesus. One of the apostles (Peterson?) gave a really disturbing address about that at BYU. I have a copy of it somewhere.

I checked the speech. It was apostle Bruce R. McConkie. Apparently the speech caused quite a backlash and McConkie had to retract part of it.
Paul

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Panis Angelicas:

Wow. Didn’t alarms go off in your husband’s head? Didn’t common reason tell him that one or both of these priests must be giving our misinformation, and that he is duty bound to find out which answer is True?
The Church hasn’t changed Her doctrines.
But you can find a person, priest or otherwise, who will water down whatever doctrine he feels makes himself uncomfortable.
The Church’s doctrines won’t change.
Your husband should ask the priest to see some official Church documentation that permits him to return to the sacraments, before partaking of the Eucharist while not properly disposed to do so.
Some priests, it seems, would rather make everyone comfortable, than to shepherd their souls.
Church Teaching is quite clear and readily available. I hope your husband does some searching for truthful answers.
Priests are not permitted to change Church doctrines to suit their fancies. This clergyman, if he is doing as you say, may be doing a disservice to countless souls…

I think I told you in one post that the priest sent paperwork in to the tribunal and they called and asked some questions about the letter my husband submitted with the paperwork and money. They asked if he had been abused by priests while in the Catholic orphanage and he said no, only by nuns who beat him. Then they sent a retired priest to our home and that priest told him to say 30 Hail Marys and he was forgiven for his divorce and could take the eucharist and go to confession. I asked my husband if they gave him an annulment and he said no, they just said it had been so long(25 years) and she had been married to someone else and joined the Seventh Day Adventist church, that they were granting him forgiveness. So there are the facts, it was done by a tribunal.
Not just the priests. Maybe it is the 7th Day Adventist thing that caused them to change their minds, I have no idea how it works with regards to forgiveness of Divorce. All I know is it took about 3 years of intense searching to get something done. Some priests we contacted were Canon Lawyers? and said they could do it for a lot of money. I just wanted my husband to find the answers he needed, he was suffering and so depressed over what the priests were telling him. So the Tribunal turned things around and my husband is happy and at peace with his faith again. If the Tribunal did something wrong then I guess they will have to answer for it somewhere along the line. What do you think?

 

[BJ_Colbert]

This is even more strange in light of the Book of Mormon. In 3rd Nephi it says that when Jesus appeared to the Nephites and Lamanites, they worshipped him and prayed to him. But modern LDS are forbidden to do so. Then again the BoM was written several years before Joseph developed his multiple-god theology.

God bless,
Paul

Are you kidding? Our church is called the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” Why would we be forbidden to have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? That is our goal in life, to be more like Him. What in the world are you talking about?
You make me crazy, with your discourses out of context and non-Mormon doctrine. As I said many times before Mormons have their own free agency and they sometimes say things that are human and not God-given. It is not considered scripture and is not believed by all Mormons. We have our own personal opinions or misunderstanding of things, and with more knowledge sometimes these personal opinions change.
Just because I am trying to be a better person, does not mean God is going to always tell me what to say. Some of the speakers you talk about have had to say, this is personal opinion and not inspiration from God. Obviously, as I pointed out above some Priests have their own opinions and pass them on as law.
Then a tribunal comes along and rebukes everything they said.
All persons in this world have a right to personal opinion, whether they are Catholic or Mormon, we just do not all think alike and should not be told that we do. There are scriptures and there are writings of personal opinion. There is a difference, and there lies all the difference!!!

 

[cestusdei]

BJ,
I am an official on my diocesian tribunal (defender of the bond). I have serious doubts about that story. I have never heard of such a thing in my whole time on the tribunal. Perhaps you only received the story in garbled form. If such a thing happened it should be reported to the bishop for disciplinary action. It would be a gross violation of canon law and Catholic teaching.

 

[Katholikos]

BJ Colbert:

Why would we be forbidden to have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? That is our goal in life, to be more like Him. What in the world are you talking about?

BJ, are you a henotheist (do you believe in more than one god – the LDS (Mormon) church teaches that Heavenly Father, Jesus, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods – but worship only one of them; namely, Heavenly Father? Or are you a polytheist (do you worship more than one god; i.e., Heavenly Father and your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

BTW, I’m still waiting for an answer to my previous question, asked twice. I’ll now ask it a third time.

Since your husand is a Catholic and will not be ‘exalted’ in the afterlife and become a god and rule over his own planet, and since you therefore cannot be his goddess-wife, what will be your fate?

Please answer both questions. Thank you.

JMJ Jay

 

[PaulDupre]

Are you kidding? Our church is called the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” Why would we be forbidden to have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Dear BJ,
Why indeed? The problem here seems to be that you do not believe what your church teaches. I am glad of that. But you must realize that what Mormons call a relationship with Jesus and what Catholics call a relationship with Jesus are two entirely different things.

We (and all Christians) pray to Jesus and worship Him openly as our God. You are forbidden to do so, even though the Nephites in the Book of Mormon prayed to Jesus and worshipped Him. To the Mormons, Jesus is just an elder brother, no different than the rest of us except he was given the task of performing the atonement.

The Nephites seemed to understand that The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons in one co-eternal God, so when you worship one you worship all. Mormons have changed the definition of God so that now Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate gods. If you worship one you are not worshipping the others.

As an experiment, next time you are asked to give the opening prayer at Sacrament Meeting, march up there and pray to Jesus instead of Heavenly Father. Observe carefully the reaction you get. You are likely to be dragged into the bishop’s office and get a stern rebuke.

The fact that your Church has the words *Jesus Christ * in its name means nothing if you have redefined those words to mean something that no Christian would recognize.

The conflict here is not between you and me, but between you and the Mormon Church. You clearly do not believe (or understand) what your church really teaches.
God bless you,
Paul

 

[Katholikos]

BJ, were you and your husband ever married in the presence of a Catholic priest or deacon?

 

[Tmaque]

PaulDupre:

Dear BJ,
As an experiment, next time you are asked to give the opening prayer at Sacrament Meeting, march up there and pray to Jesus instead of Heavenly Father. Observe carefully the reaction you get. You are likely to be dragged into the bishop’s office and get a stern rebuke.
Paul

Paul, I was thinking of a good way to demonstrate this to BJ but your suggestion is perfect.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Katholikos:

BJ, are you a henotheist (do you believe in more than one god – the LDS (Mormon) church teaches that Heavenly Father, Jesus, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods – but worship only one of them; namely, Heavenly Father? Or are you a polytheist (do you worship more than one god; i.e., Heavenly Father and your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

BTW, I’m still waiting for an answer to my previous question, asked twice. I’ll now ask it a third time.

Since your husand is a Catholic and will not be ‘exalted’ in the afterlife and become a god and rule over his own planet, and since you therefore cannot be his goddess-wife, what will be your fate?

Please answer both questions. Thank you.

JMJ Jay

I don’t know what the first question means, so can’t answer that one. All I know is I worship God, and Jesus Christ his son, the Holy Spirit is the messenger of the God Head and that is all. When I say prayers I say" Our Father in Heaven…Thank you for blessings(specifically) Ask for things I and family and friends need need like good health, and close In the name of Jesus Christ Amen. I don’t know what this is considered by you or what the name of it is. I have done it since I was 2 years old and I don’t know any other form. Sometimes I pray kneeling and sometimes just driving in the car, I have a running stream of prayer going on in my head. I don’t understand your concept of God being his own son, so I guess I worship two, but it is God we talk to in the name of His Son.
In regards to my husband, I love him for now, if we are not together as a family in the hereafter, I will be very sad and it would not be heaven for me. But, I trust in God to make things the way they should be, whatever that way is. I have no idea if I will be good enough to make it to heaven. I guess it will be a surprise. Whatever happens, I was alone for 20 years between my first husband and my present husband, and raised 6 children without help or child support, so I expect I will not be alone where ever I end up. I really don’t worry about it. I have a lot to do before I get to the other side. Since I have never been taught about the other planets you are always asking about, I personally would not like to be some kind of God or Godess, it is too much work and stress to raise 6 let alone billions. Can’t even fathom it.

 

[SDA2RC]

BJ Colbert:

So there are the facts, it was done by a tribunal.

BJ, with all due respect, a tribunal does not “grant forgiveness” for a marriage, nor do they generally assign a penance of Hail Mary’s for a divorce. A tribunal would make a legal/ecclesiastical and public pronouncement on the validity of the marriage on the day the marriage took place. Furthermore, their actions would be reported via a notarized proclomation of judgement signed by the Ecclesiastical Judge in the case.

Futhermore, annulments cannot be “done” for lots of money, how much you pay (and most dioceses have a set fee, that can be waived for those unable to pay) has nothing to do with whether a certificate of nullity is granted.

I would suggest that your husband contact the bishops office and/or tribunal.

Brandon