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tkdnick
Guest
That’s what I always thought, but BJ’s comments sounded different.
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PaulDupre
Guest
With all due respect to BJ, her beliefs do not reflect the teachings of the LDS Church.
Paul
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Katholikos
Guest
Earth to BYU-BOY, where are you? Come in . . .
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
You guys have got my mind spinning hopelessly, all I know for sure is there is a God and there is Jesus Christ and there is a Holy Spirit, and that is all I have ever known. If someone somewhere(Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdry, or whomever)said otherwise then I would have to say it might be that they were putting forth their own thoughts as I have been. You can not say what I say is Church Doctrine. It is as I understand things and not anything else. I think that is all there is to say on this subject, as we will never know, except by faith, until one of us crosses over and comes back to tell the others how it is. I know by faith, without having seen God and you also know by faith how you believe Him to appear.Not one of us is going to convince the other and there is just some
difference which I can’t understand and you apparently can’t either. So the explanations just get harder to understand anything. I would admit to believing anything you tell me to by now, I’m totally dizzy. Blond too. As someone said in one thread, it is a mystery and let it remain as such.
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
Did I slur the Catholic Church??? I do not think so, and I still don’t agree with your planet theory, even if you quote legions of men who have speculated it. It is just that a speculation and men of God do not have their own brains removed they only have revelation on things pertaining to the salvation of man.
Also, on the worship of the Holy Spirit(he is part of the God head)
So I would suppose he would be included as he is the message bearer to God, but we don’t specifically say Our Holy Spirit which is in Heaven, it is just understood that he will deliver the message and bring messages or blessings from God to us, he is part of the three who make up the God Head.
That is enough already…
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
Hi Tdnick sp?
Paul Dupre is right I have no business trying to defend Mormonism on a Catholic website, so I resign. See you in Church, “Divine Savior” that is. We will try it out for Christmas so sing loud and clear. Maybe I will venture back to the forum and let you know what I think. Does anyone know how to change parishes? My husband wants his donations to go to his parish and I always have to go up and put it in the box if we go to another parish. I hate going in by myself when everyone is gone and have go all the way up to the front to drop it in. Oh well, I’ve gotten used to it so I guess I’ll survive. It’s that high maintenance thing Paul talked about.
Paul Dupre is right I have no business trying to defend Mormonism on a Catholic website, so I resign. See you in Church, “Divine Savior” that is. We will try it out for Christmas so sing loud and clear. Maybe I will venture back to the forum and let you know what I think. Does anyone know how to change parishes? My husband wants his donations to go to his parish and I always have to go up and put it in the box if we go to another parish. I hate going in by myself when everyone is gone and have go all the way up to the front to drop it in. Oh well, I’ve gotten used to it so I guess I’ll survive. It’s that high maintenance thing Paul talked about.
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tkdnick
Guest
BJ Colbert:
You don’t really have to change parishes in the sense of like registration or anything unless you really want to. Catholics are free to attend any parish they wish. For Christmas…come to 7:00 on Christmas Eve. That’s when we’re going. Every other Sunday it’s 11:30! When you’re looking at the band, I’ll be the last one on the right with a guitar and mic. Stop by and say hi!
Now I’m the blonde confused one (yes I’m really blonde)! You’re going to stop posting because you don’t like the things Paul says??? Wouldn’t it be easier and more beneficial to just ignore those people you wish not to deal with?
You don’t really have to change parishes in the sense of like registration or anything unless you really want to. Catholics are free to attend any parish they wish. For Christmas…come to 7:00 on Christmas Eve. That’s when we’re going. Every other Sunday it’s 11:30! When you’re looking at the band, I’ll be the last one on the right with a guitar and mic. Stop by and say hi!
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tkdnick
Guest
BJ Colbert:
You don’t really have to change parishes in the sense of like registration or anything unless you really want to. Catholics are free to attend any parish they wish. For Christmas…come to 7:00 on Christmas Eve. That’s when we’re going. Every other Sunday it’s 11:30! When you’re looking at the band, I’ll be the last one on the right with a guitar and mic. Oh yeah…I have a goatee. That’ll be a distinguisher! Stop by and say hi!
Now I’m the blonde confused one (yes I’m really blonde)! You’re going to stop posting because you don’t like the things Paul says??? Wouldn’t it be easier and more beneficial to just ignore those people you wish not to deal with?
You don’t really have to change parishes in the sense of like registration or anything unless you really want to. Catholics are free to attend any parish they wish. For Christmas…come to 7:00 on Christmas Eve. That’s when we’re going. Every other Sunday it’s 11:30! When you’re looking at the band, I’ll be the last one on the right with a guitar and mic. Oh yeah…I have a goatee. That’ll be a distinguisher! Stop by and say hi!
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PaulDupre
Guest
BJ Colbert:
My comments were not directed at you. If you notice, I used the masculine pronoun. I understand that you are a woman, right? Though we could have done without the whole “cheese sandwich” thing.
God bless you,
Paul
Hi BJ,
My comments were not directed at you. If you notice, I used the masculine pronoun. I understand that you are a woman, right? Though we could have done without the whole “cheese sandwich” thing.
Don’t know what “planet theory” you’re talking about, but you can disagree all you want. That’s what these forums are all about.
Please ask your bishop or Elder’s Quorum President or somebody about the whole “separate gods” thing. It is obvious you have never understood it and you really should since the nature of God is the basis of any religion.
God bless you,
Paul
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SDA2RC
Guest
BJ Colbert:
I totally agree that the Trinity is One God, Three Persons! However, it is important to note that there is certainly a disagreement between the RCC belief, as I quoted from the catechism, and the LDS Belief, which teaches three Gods, Three persons, one in purpose and unity.
However, if your belief is synonymous with the Roman Catholic belief, then I applaud you for your understanding and acceptance of the true doctrine of God in spite of the teachings of the LDS Church.
Contrast what I quoted from the catechism with the following from the book “Mormon Doctrine” by an apostles of the LDS Church Bruce R. McConkie:
“There are three Gods–the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” pg. 317
“[T]hree separate personages–Father, Son, and Holy Ghost comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a god, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship.” pg 576
I hope you can see the contrast between the RCC position of Three Persons, yet one God… vs. the LDS position of three persons, three gods!
Brandon
BJ,
I totally agree that the Trinity is One God, Three Persons! However, it is important to note that there is certainly a disagreement between the RCC belief, as I quoted from the catechism, and the LDS Belief, which teaches three Gods, Three persons, one in purpose and unity.
However, if your belief is synonymous with the Roman Catholic belief, then I applaud you for your understanding and acceptance of the true doctrine of God in spite of the teachings of the LDS Church.
Contrast what I quoted from the catechism with the following from the book “Mormon Doctrine” by an apostles of the LDS Church Bruce R. McConkie:
“There are three Gods–the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” pg. 317
“[T]hree separate personages–Father, Son, and Holy Ghost comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a god, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship.” pg 576
I hope you can see the contrast between the RCC position of Three Persons, yet one God… vs. the LDS position of three persons, three gods!
Brandon
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cestusdei
Guest
Paul Dupre,
Do you have a website devoted to Mormon apologetical issues?
Do you have a website devoted to Mormon apologetical issues?
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PaulDupre
Guest
No. I haven’t put up a website because there are so many already out there. Most approach things from a Protestant viewpoint but are still very helpful.
Another reason is that I would not want to antagonize my LDS relatives. I am making some progress with them and don’t want them to see me as an anti-Mormon.
My older brother has finally, after 18 years, stopped telling me that I will end up dead in a gutter (something Mormons are taught always happens to ex-Mormons). My sister actually respects Catholicism now and allows her daughter to attend a Catholic high school (which her daughter loves). Her husband still thinks I worship statues.
Oh well.Thanks for asking,
Paul
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tkdnick
Guest
That must be a hard situation to be in!No. I haven’t put up a website because there are so many already out there. Most approach things from a Protestant viewpoint but are still very helpful.
Another reason is that I would not want to antagonize my LDS relatives. I am making some progress with them and don’t want them to see me as an anti-Mormon.
My older brother has finally, after 18 years, stopped telling me that I will end up dead in a gutter (something Mormons are taught always happens to ex-Mormons). My sister actually respects Catholicism now and allows her daughter to attend a Catholic high school (which her daughter loves). Her husband still thinks I worship statues.
Thanks for asking,
Paul
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cestusdei
Guest
All of this could be easily solved. All Mormons have to do is give just one, just one, artifact from a BOM civilization. It would have to be one that is accepted by the non-Mormon archeologists. Anything would do. A coin, inscription, tomb, or anything that would be incontrovertibile evidence that the BOM contained at least some accurate history. So there is the challenge. It isn’t to much to ask. I can show artifacts that prove Jews lived in Israel. Some of the cities are still there and intact. So Mormons…put up or shut up.
Just give us ONE artifact that can be verified by non-Mormon archeologists.
Just give us ONE artifact that can be verified by non-Mormon archeologists.
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
You would not believe if God himself showed you. You have obviously not traveled in Mayan lands, or you would see the similarities in the Pyramids of Egypt and the pyramids of Mexico and Guatemala, and other places. You would see the similarities in some of the names of places and you would hear the stories of the Mayans about a great white God who promised to return. They thought Cortez was that God, that is why they worshiped the Spaniards. If the Catholic priests had not forced them to burn and destroy all the records of their people it might be easier to find the proof. But, never mind it will come, they have only just begun to uncover the ancient cities and over 2000 years of jungle growth is a difficult thing to conquer. Just look at the Panama canal, and how difficult it was to build. There are just too many obstacles to overcome, and besides God does not stoop to prove to the faithless. He does not need to prove anything to you. I have spent many years in that part of the Americas and I know without a shadow of doubt, that is all that matters.
A man of God would not say what you just said in the way you said it. But, in this forum and other places I have learned that priests are not men of God, but just ordinary men who have decided to withdraw from society and take the easy way out of the trials of life. I was not trying to prove my religion is true(though it is), I do not have to prove it, but only explain the LDS point of view. I was only having a discourse with others who asked questions and were telling me in return what Catholics believe.
I learned a lot and I am able to help my husband(who is Catholic) If it were not for me he would have left the Catholic church with all the double talking by different priests. Priests do not stand up for each other, but tell us not to talk to this or that priest because they do not know what they are talking about and even your Tribunals don’t know what they are doing, according to one priest who answered in this forum, and told me we should turn the Tribunal into the Bishop, because they are wrong even though they had a priest well-versed in Canon law looking into my husband’s case. I have encouraged him to stay and search for answers. But, maybe it was a mistake on my part, because I see again how onery and mean priests can be, and none of them agree with each other. Apparently, the God of your church is unforgiving and a person who has committed any sin might as well give up because it is held against him forever. There is no hope in your church. If a person is divorced he is simply out in the cold, no love, no hope no matter how good a person he is. But, a murderer or child molester or any other sinner is welcome back with full blessings. The monsignor that I send to Ireland every year is a full blown alcoholic and that is OK. (I am his travel agent) He doesn’t have to set an example for his parishners or the children he leads.
The retired priest who the Tribunal sent to our home, said not to talk to my husband’s main priest in his parish because no one agrees with him and he does not know what he is doing. That is why Tdknick told us to go to “Divine Savior”, he says it is a better parish and we will like it. How can a Catholic ever know what to believe if the Priests do not even know or agree with each other?
You don’t have to answer this because I won’t be visiting your site again. You have bashed the LDS church and all under the guise that what you say is the truth. Well, this is as close to bashing the Catholic church that I have come(except for the cheese sandwich with Mary on it) and I can tell you for a fact it is all true from personal experience.
A man of God would not say what you just said in the way you said it. But, in this forum and other places I have learned that priests are not men of God, but just ordinary men who have decided to withdraw from society and take the easy way out of the trials of life. I was not trying to prove my religion is true(though it is), I do not have to prove it, but only explain the LDS point of view. I was only having a discourse with others who asked questions and were telling me in return what Catholics believe.
I learned a lot and I am able to help my husband(who is Catholic) If it were not for me he would have left the Catholic church with all the double talking by different priests. Priests do not stand up for each other, but tell us not to talk to this or that priest because they do not know what they are talking about and even your Tribunals don’t know what they are doing, according to one priest who answered in this forum, and told me we should turn the Tribunal into the Bishop, because they are wrong even though they had a priest well-versed in Canon law looking into my husband’s case. I have encouraged him to stay and search for answers. But, maybe it was a mistake on my part, because I see again how onery and mean priests can be, and none of them agree with each other. Apparently, the God of your church is unforgiving and a person who has committed any sin might as well give up because it is held against him forever. There is no hope in your church. If a person is divorced he is simply out in the cold, no love, no hope no matter how good a person he is. But, a murderer or child molester or any other sinner is welcome back with full blessings. The monsignor that I send to Ireland every year is a full blown alcoholic and that is OK. (I am his travel agent) He doesn’t have to set an example for his parishners or the children he leads.
The retired priest who the Tribunal sent to our home, said not to talk to my husband’s main priest in his parish because no one agrees with him and he does not know what he is doing. That is why Tdknick told us to go to “Divine Savior”, he says it is a better parish and we will like it. How can a Catholic ever know what to believe if the Priests do not even know or agree with each other?
You don’t have to answer this because I won’t be visiting your site again. You have bashed the LDS church and all under the guise that what you say is the truth. Well, this is as close to bashing the Catholic church that I have come(except for the cheese sandwich with Mary on it) and I can tell you for a fact it is all true from personal experience.
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clmowry
Guest
BJ Colbert:
BJ Colbert:
BJ Colbert:
If you were looking to prove that the members of the LDS have a distinct bias against the Catholic church then you’ve suceeded wonderfully.
Chuck
I’d be interested to see the historical record that demonstrates this distruction of a nations records.
BJ Colbert:
Can you possibly really belive that? That a Priest has taken the easy way out?
BJ Colbert:
I was actually feeling a bit like you were being unfairly bombarded by all of these post, but goodnes gracious this is about as discourteous attack I’ve seen on this, or any web site.
If you were looking to prove that the members of the LDS have a distinct bias against the Catholic church then you’ve suceeded wonderfully.
Chuck
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rich123456
Guest
I once spent many hours with one who is very LDS here in Utah. An elderly man named Paul who was raised to despise the Catholic Church. At the end of the night he surprised me with this quote: “You think a lot of that Jesus don’t you?”. With a chill I said “yes I do”. When I spoke of Trinity to two Missionaries the other night the elder one laughed. I let him know that he was laughing at Christianity and at Christ Himself. He went silent. The fallen angel that was created good through Christ is jealous of Jesus. We all have this nature in us. It is the desire for power other than Gods. This kind of power was defeated on the Cross by Jesus. We may be in the third or fourth quarter of the game but we know the final score. Again it is a hatred of Jesus. Satan can come to us in what appears to be the light of Christ, even calling himself Christ. Hold fast to Church Traditions and doctrine. And receive communion as often as one can.
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) - Joseph Smith: founder, prophet, seer, and revelator of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) - Joseph Smith: founder, prophet, seer, and revelator of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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Katholikos
Guest
BJCOLBERT wrote:
You are rather like these Big Foot believers. In spite of the evidence, you continue to believe Joseph Smith.
BJ, no one here has “bashed” the LDS church. We have quoted only from official Mormom documents. You just won’t accept the truth.
I wish you peace of mind and heart,
JMJ Jay
Recently, at his death, the man who perpetrated the Big Foot fraud admitted it, and either he or his family showed the press how he did it. There were photographs of him in action, proving that he faked the evidence. In spite of this, some people continue to believe it, and when shown the evidence of how it was done, they said he was lying and insisted that there’s “scientific” proof for the existence of Big Foot.
You are rather like these Big Foot believers. In spite of the evidence, you continue to believe Joseph Smith.
BJ, no one here has “bashed” the LDS church. We have quoted only from official Mormom documents. You just won’t accept the truth.
I wish you peace of mind and heart,
JMJ Jay
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Writer
Guest
I must admit that I encounter a challenge every time I enter into one of these discussions concerning the Mormon faith, because it rests on the premise that we give the LDS church some degree of the benefit of the doubt as to their very legitimacy and the intellectual honesty of its educated members. A bit of personal background first. My family was apparently targeted for conversion by the LDS Church in another community. We continued to fellowship with the people as a ministry of our own, but, as soon as they realized we weren’t interested in joining, the friendships disapeared. As Christians who were present (in the house of a member) during one of their “rites”, I would also mention that we both felt a presence in that house, and it was not the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Without getting too deep in theological discussions here, I would mention a few issues off the top of my head for you to mull over… First, why haven’t you discussed the LDS “sacred undies” of its “missionaries”. Second, why is it when something becomes frowned on my governmental authourities–i.e. polygamy–this church simply decides to change its core beliefs? That’s what I call adaptability! Third, as I understand it, you claim that ol’ Joey Smith obtained his vision while looking through some magic rocks or glasses? Fourth, how do you declare that women are valued by the Mormon church (as anything other than devices of fertility_ when one examines their marriage ceremony and interwoven beliefs–e.g. the women must be called to heaven by the husband.
How can we debate the fundamental issues of faith with you when the only thing your beliefs appear to be missing is a laugh track? There is a reason no Christian church even accepts the LDS baptisms as valid. It is a manmade religion and therefore cannot offer anything of any intrinsic value or worth. Furthermore, hte nature of the LDS church is frightening in how its good works obscure the perverted nature of its belief structure. By encouraging the young men to devote themselves to a mission trip, I believe there is also an insidious result. Namely, the missionaries’ own personal investment and involvement in the conversions of others to their heresy, I believe, creates a pressure to avoid questioning their faith. After all, if they change their mind, they lose not only their family and friends, but they also must realize that they have led many astray.
Without getting too deep in theological discussions here, I would mention a few issues off the top of my head for you to mull over… First, why haven’t you discussed the LDS “sacred undies” of its “missionaries”. Second, why is it when something becomes frowned on my governmental authourities–i.e. polygamy–this church simply decides to change its core beliefs? That’s what I call adaptability! Third, as I understand it, you claim that ol’ Joey Smith obtained his vision while looking through some magic rocks or glasses? Fourth, how do you declare that women are valued by the Mormon church (as anything other than devices of fertility_ when one examines their marriage ceremony and interwoven beliefs–e.g. the women must be called to heaven by the husband.
How can we debate the fundamental issues of faith with you when the only thing your beliefs appear to be missing is a laugh track? There is a reason no Christian church even accepts the LDS baptisms as valid. It is a manmade religion and therefore cannot offer anything of any intrinsic value or worth. Furthermore, hte nature of the LDS church is frightening in how its good works obscure the perverted nature of its belief structure. By encouraging the young men to devote themselves to a mission trip, I believe there is also an insidious result. Namely, the missionaries’ own personal investment and involvement in the conversions of others to their heresy, I believe, creates a pressure to avoid questioning their faith. After all, if they change their mind, they lose not only their family and friends, but they also must realize that they have led many astray.
W
Writer
Guest
As a final aside, an interesting book on the LDS concept of marriage is Secret Ceremonies by Deborah Laake. Although a little sensationalized as I remember, it offered an interesting glimpse behind the curtain.
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