The Truth about the Mormons from a Devout Mormon

BJ_Colbert · Dec 1, 2004

cestusdei:

BJ,
I am an official on my diocesian tribunal (defender of the bond). I have serious doubts about that story. I have never heard of such a thing in my whole time on the tribunal. Perhaps you only received the story in garbled form. If such a thing happened it should be reported to the bishop for disciplinary action. It would be a gross violation of canon law and Catholic teaching.

  I asked my husband to clarify what the Tribunal said, he said"They had him say 10 Our Fathers, 10 Hail Marys, 10 Glory Be's and 1 Rosary(the sorrowful kind), he said they made an exception for him under the circumstances that it was 25 years ago, she had remarried twice and belongs to the Seventh Day Adventist Church".  Of course he had to give money to them also for it to be considered by the Tribunal, and he donates a lot to the church.  I am sorry I thought it was 30 Hail Marys, but I obviously don't understand those things.  My husband is 70 years old, maybe they thought he had suffered long enough.  He was really depressed and upset over being turned away from confession, it was right after his brain surgery and he was totally paralyzed and in a wheel chair.  I took him into the church and the priest refused to talk to him.  He was devastated, and that is why we went to the head priest who told us the other priest was too old fashioned and literal.  He is the one who turned the paperwork in to the Tribunal and they sent a retired priest to our home and he assigned the penalty and gave the forgiveness.  I was there every step of the way, I heard the conversation on the phone with the tribunal representative, so I know it happened just the way I am telling you.

BJ_Colbert · Dec 1, 2004

Katholikos:

BJ, were you and your husband ever married in the presence of a Catholic priest or deacon?

No, We were married by a non denominational minister. But, my husband’s priest said we could have a special ceremony if we wanted to. We just don’t feel the need at this time.

Exporter · Dec 1, 2004

I know a fiend of mine had a Catholic boy who was married to a Catholic girl from another state, in another state. They were married by a Justice of the Peace. After 4 years the girl became mentally ill, ran away and wouldn’t come back…there was a divorce. Several years later he married a Protestant girl , again by a Justice of the Peace.

He went to confession with me a few years ago. When we started home he said the priest would not forgive his sins. He is outside the Church and I know it hurts him. He was an alter boy, attended elementary school with Nuns for teachers. But he is in a trap now.

BJ_Colbert · Dec 1, 2004

PaulDupre:

Dear BJ,
Why indeed? The problem here seems to be that you do not believe what your church teaches. I am glad of that. But you must realize that what Mormons call a relationship with Jesus and what Catholics call a relationship with Jesus are two entirely different things.

We (and all Christians) pray to Jesus and worship Him openly as our God. You are forbidden to do so, even though the Nephites in the Book of Mormon prayed to Jesus and worshipped Him. To the Mormons, Jesus is just an elder brother, no different than the rest of us except he was given the task of performing the atonement.

The Nephites seemed to understand that The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons in one co-eternal God, so when you worship one you worship all. Mormons have changed the definition of God so that now Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate gods. If you worship one you are not worshipping the others.

As an experiment, next time you are asked to give the opening prayer at Sacrament Meeting, march up there and pray to Jesus instead of Heavenly Father. Observe carefully the reaction you get. You are likely to be dragged into the bishop’s office and get a stern rebuke.

The fact that your Church has the words *Jesus Christ * in its name means nothing if you have redefined those words to mean something that no Christian would recognize.

The conflict here is not between you and me, but between you and the Mormon Church. You clearly do not believe (or understand) what your church really teaches.
God bless you,
Paul

You know where the difficulty comes is that we believe that Jesus Christ is the God of this world, so in effect we are praying to Jesus Christ as the God of this world. His father is our Father in Heaven and He is the God of the Universe. So there now, I admit it is hard to understand, but I understand, I just have a difficult time explaining it when we all understand it differently. It really is a waste of time to hash it over as it will not change anything. I know my Father in Heaven and I know his son Jesus Christ and I know the Holy Spirit guides me, and through him my prayers are answered. As long as my prayers are answered, then I guess I am getting through to the right place. When I don’t get answers and feel that guidance then I might wonder, but for now I am sure He loves me and is there to guide me and protect me.
I’m not sure how it all works, I just know He lives and He answers my prayers and that is a great comfort in my life.
I have something called faith.

Panis_Angelicas · Dec 2, 2004

Exporter:

I know a fiend of mine had a Catholic boy who was married to a Catholic girl from another state, in another state. They were married by a Justice of the Peace. After 4 years the girl became mentally ill, ran away and wouldn’t come back…there was a divorce. Several years later he married a Protestant girl , again by a Justice of the Peace.

He went to confession with me a few years ago. When we started home he said the priest would not forgive his sins. He is outside the Church and I know it hurts him. He was an alter boy, attended elementary school with Nuns for teachers. But he is in a trap now.

Exporter,
This should be on a thread of it’s own. I don’t see where it has anything to do with the Mormon discussion.
However, let me say that there is still hope for your “fiend” heh, heh, friend…
You see, a priest cannot absolve someone of a lifestyle that is ongoing. There are three requirements for the forgiveness of sins, confession being only one of them. The other two are True Contrition and Having a Firm Purpose of Ammendment (along with penance.) Now if he’s still living with the second wife, and the marriage has not been acknowledged in the eyes of God as a valid marriage, then the man is still fornicating in the eyes of God.
So, he would need to get in touch with the diocesan marriage tribunal, through his parish priest, to get this situation rectified. Once the validity of his marriage is established by the Church, he can happily return to the sacraments. But at the moment, the Church would not acknowledge that he’s ever been married in God’s eyes, not the first time, nor the second. He was married outside the Church both times.

Katholikos · Dec 2, 2004

BJ Colbert:

You know where the difficulty comes is that we believe that Jesus Christ is the God of this world, so in effect we are praying to Jesus Christ as the God of this world. His father is our Father in Heaven and He is the God of the Universe. So there now, I admit it is hard to understand, but I understand, I just have a difficult time explaining it when we all understand it differently. It really is a waste of time to hash it over as it will not change anything. I know my Father in Heaven and I know his son Jesus Christ and I know the Holy Spirit guides me, and through him my prayers are answered. As long as my prayers are answered, then I guess I am getting through to the right place. When I don’t get answers and feel that guidance then I might wonder, but for now I am sure He loves me and is there to guide me and protect me.
I’m not sure how it all works, I just know He lives and He answers my prayers and that is a great comfort in my life.
I have something called faith.

You have established that you are a polytheist – you worship more than one god – Heavenly Father is a god, and Jesus is a separate god. You don’t worship the Holy Ghost, though he is also a god of earth, as Jesus and Heavenly Father are.

As I recall, you earlier denied that there are multiple gods in Mormonism, either on this thread or another one :whacky:

.

Thanks, Jay

BJ_Colbert · Dec 2, 2004

Katholikos:

You have established that you are a polytheist – you worship more than one god – Heavenly Father is a god, and Jesus is a separate god. You don’t worship the Holy Ghost, though he is also a god of earth, as Jesus and Heavenly Father are.

As I recall, you earlier denied that there are multiple gods in Mormonism, either on this thread or another one :whacky: .

Thanks, Jay

In that thread, I believe someone said that we worship numerous gods on planets strung out accross the universe. I only said if there are such in existence(which I don’t know of) We do not worship them. We only worship God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ. I do not know how that can be confusing, I find it confusing that they can all be one exact same personage, and that Jesus Christ can be his own son. So that to me is extremely confusing.

Katholikos · Dec 2, 2004

BJ Colbert:

No, We were married by a non denominational minister. But, my husband’s priest said we could have a special ceremony if we wanted to. We just don’t feel the need at this time.

Your husband’s marriage situation seems highly irregular, from what you’ve told us.

The Law of the Catholic Church:

Can. 1108 §1 Only those marriages are valid which are contracted in the presence of the local Ordinary or parish priest or of the priest or deacon delegated by either of them. . .

Ordinary = bishop

In other words, a Catholic cannot validly marry except in the presence of a bishop, parish priest, or deacon.

A Catholic cannot validly marry in the presence of a Protestant minister, unless a priest is also present.

JMJ Jay

Orogeny · Dec 2, 2004

BJ Colbert:

In that thread, I believe someone said that we worship numerous gods on planets strung out accross the universe. I only said if there are such in existence(which I don’t know of) We do not worship them.

You are open to the idea that there are other gods that God?

We only worship God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ. I do not know how that can be confusing, I find it confusing that they can all be one exact same personage, and that Jesus Christ can be his own son. So that to me is extremely confusing.

Which is one of the criticisms of the LDS. As Christians, we believe in one God as described in the bible, not three separate gods. As Jay noted, your statement indicates that you are a polythiest. Are you saying that you are not?

Peace

Tim

SDA2RC · Dec 2, 2004

BJ Colbert:

I find it confusing that they can all be one exact same personage, and that Jesus Christ can be his own son. So that to me is extremely confusing.

BJ, I agree that it would be confusing to believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all “one exact same personage”. But since this is not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, this is not an issue. The Roman Catholic Church Believes that in the Blessed Trinity, there are THREE PERSONS.

Here is a quote from the Catechism:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity.” The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.” “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” The divine Unity is Triune.

To put this in other terms, although obviously an imperfect analogy, the Presidency of the United States is ONE PERSON.

However, the Presidency of the LDS Church is THREE PERSONS. These three persons are the presidency, not three seperate presidency’s.

Three Persons, one presidency. In the Blessed Trinity, we have three persons, one God!

Brandon

tkdnick · Dec 2, 2004

BJ Colbert:

We only worship God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ. I do not know how that can be confusing, I find it confusing that they can all be one exact same personage, and that Jesus Christ can be his own son. So that to me is extremely confusing.

Here’s just a quick look at the “scripture” references I found in the Book of Mormon. All these came from scriptures.lds.org

I’m just wondering how you explain these…

2 Nephi 31:21

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away•; and there is bnone• other way nor cname given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the ddoctrine• of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the eFather, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is fone• God, without end. Amen.

Mosiah 15:3-5

The Father, abecause• he was bconceived• by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
And they are aone• God, yea, the very bEternal• cFather• of heaven and of earth
And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God

continued…

tkdnick · Dec 2, 2004

…continued

Alma 11:38-39

Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very aEternal• Father of heaven and of earth, and ball• things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

Alma 11:44

Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be arestored• to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the bFather, and the Holy Spirit, which is cone• Eternal God, to be djudged• according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

cestusdei · Dec 2, 2004

BJ,
I am going to assume you don’t know much about marriage tribunals. Whatever is done must be according to canon law. There are ways to resolve situations that don’t require a decree of nullity. For example a couple who agree to live as brother and sister or radical sanation. It can get very complex. I would have to know all the circumstances of past marriages and spouses to determine if the law was followed properly. That is not really possible in this context. It suffices to say that we believe marriage is for life, that money plays no role in the annulment process, and that I have never seen any bribes or hints thereof in all my time on the court. I don’t think we can resolve these marital issues on the board. So I would suggest we focus on the errors of Mormonism which is the real topic. If you want to discuss annulments we can have another thread just on that if you wish.

Tmaque · Dec 2, 2004

BJ Colbert:

You know where the difficulty comes is that we believe that Jesus Christ is the God of this world, so in effect we are praying to Jesus Christ as the God of this world.

BJ, you are officially the only Mormon I now know of that prays to Jesus. Most of my friends are LDS and all of my family is as well (10 siblings). I remember being corrected by my mother when a child because I started a prayer “Dear Jesus”. I suggest you try Paul’s idea and pray to Jesus in Sacrament meeting. You’ll quickly find that you are out of touch with the norm in the LDS church. Also, I’ve never heard that God the Father was the God of all the universe in LDS theology. That’s news to me, I was taught that God was once a man like me. I know it seems as though we’re being picky about details here but if LDS theology was true there simply would not be so many inconsistencies. Details matter.

BJ_Colbert · Dec 2, 2004

SDA2RC,
That is the best explanation I have seen posted here on the Trinity, and if that is what Catholics believe then that is what Mormons believe. There are 3 separate personages in the God head. So we agree that there are 3 in 1 God.
The Prophet has his counselors and the 12 apostles, the seventys,high priests, stake presidents and bishops, just as the Pope has his assistants, and cardinals,bishops, priests,and
deacons.

And for my husband’s forgiveness, by Tribunal, it was a special circumstance and we were not to discuss it and now I know why.
A canon lawyer was involved and it is all very legal with the Church, so that is all I care to say about that particular thing.
As for living as brother and sister, perhaps the fact he is paralyzed has something to do with that, could be they took that into consideration. And we did pay $400.00, I’m sure that is just the regular fee to go through a Tribunal. My husband also is paying $5000.00 to the special Capitol fund. Plus his weekly donations which he has always done, as the normal offering.
He pays more to the Church since he married me, because I pay a full 10 per cent of my income. When he saw that he felt he had to pay more to his church too. So that was a very good thing for the Catholic Church.

Exporter · Dec 2, 2004

SDA2RC, You wrote.“BJ, I agree that it would be confusing to believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all “one exact same personage”. But since this is not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, this is not an issue. The Roman Catholic Church Believes that in the Blessed Trinity, there are THREE PERSONS”***********

I have been told for 50 years that there are Mysteries that we as humans can never fully understand in our lives. The Mystery of the Holy Trinity is one of these mysteries. Don’t you agree?

May I introduce this? The Holy Trinity consists of The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. Each has a different personality and resonsibility. But each and all are one God inseperable.

How does that sit with you?

tkdnick · Dec 2, 2004

Exporter:

SDA2RC, You wrote.“BJ, I agree that it would be confusing to believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all “one exact same personage”. But since this is not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, this is not an issue. The Roman Catholic Church Believes that in the Blessed Trinity, there are THREE PERSONS”***********

I have been told for 50 years that there are Mysteries that we as humans can never fully understand in our lives. The Mystery of the Holy Trinity is one of these mysteries. Don’t you agree?

May I introduce this? The Holy Trinity consists of The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. Each has a different personality and resonsibility. But each and all are one God inseperable.

How does that sit with you?

I think you have both discussed the Trinity adequately. The Trinity is 3 distinct persons in one eternal being! You are TOTALLY right…it is a mystery that as humans we CANNOT fully understand, only come up with analogies and examples that give us a partial understanding.

tkdnick · Dec 2, 2004

BJ Colbert:

SDA2RC,
That is the best explanation I have seen posted here on the Trinity, and if that is what Catholics believe then that is what Mormons believe. There are 3 separate personages in the God head. So we agree that there are 3 in 1 God.

BJ, you make this statement, but earlier you said this…

We only worship God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ.

If you believe there are three distinct persons who make one God, then why do you not pray to the Holy Spirit (Ghost)??? If they are all three the one God, why can you not pray to the Holy Spirit as well? I don’t understand…

FDS · Dec 2, 2004

PaulDupre:

I am convinced that the most compassionate thing one can do for a Mormon is to tell him the truth, even when he doesn’t like it. It has been my experience that the biggest problem in dialog with Mormons is that they misrepresent their Church’s history and doctrines. Before any meaningful dialog can take place, we must know what we are discussing. That is why I post quotes from LDS leaders as printed in LDS publications.

I am sure that we should not let any slur against the Catholic Faith go unchallenged. The Mormon Church is an institutionalized attack on Catholicism in particular and Christianity in general.

I have tried to present facts, and only facts, as calmly as I can. If I have failed in that regard I apologize, with the explanation that I am only human. But I will not sit idly by while falsehoods are shouted from the rooftops. I have never gone to a Mormon forum. When a Mormon comes to these forums to spread his “gospel”, he had best be prepared for a dose of history.

I believe that God led me through 11 years of active Mormonism for a reason. Part of that reason is right here.
God bless you,
Paul

May God bless YOU, Paul. There is no doubt that you went through those 11 years for a reason. Keep up the good work, man.

PaulDupre · Dec 2, 2004

tkdnick:

If you believe there are three distinct persons who make one God, then why do you not pray to the Holy Spirit (Ghost)??? If they are all three the one God, why can you not pray to the Holy Spirit as well? I don’t understand…

The LDS belief cannot be the same as the Catholic belief for one simple reason: LDS believe that God the Father existed before the Son and the Holy Ghost. While the LDS father was growing up on another planet and achieving godhood, the son and holy ghost did not yet exist.
Only after the father acheived godhood did he and one or more of his wives produce the son and the holy ghost (and the rest of us humans) as spirit children.

In contrast, the Catholic belief is that God was always God. It is God’s nature to exist as a family; as 3 persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He has always existed that way and always will.
There was never an instant when the Father existed and the Son and Holy Spirit did not. They are co-existent and co-eternal.
God bless us all,
Paul

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