The Truth about the Mormons from a Devout Mormon

[Katholikos]

BYU-BOY:

Hmmm. . . I could have sworn that my challenge was to find an LDS Prophet that taught such doctrine. Below is a response to your quote about Orson Pratt. My response is taken from the Mormon author Stephen Gibson.
. . .

You assert that a man who was one of the original “12 Apostles” of the LDS church, chosen personally by Joseph Smith, who was officially appointed to teach doctrine by Brigham Young, cannot be trusted to teach true LDS doctrine; and that he made up the “God had intercourse with Mary” doctrine all by himself? And that he is the only LDS official who has ever taught this?

An “Apostle” of the LDS church can’t be trusted to teach correct doctrine, but a “prophet” can? Who are the Mormon prophets, other than JS?

In the Deseret News in 1865, the First Presidency wrote again against some of the doctrine

published by Orson Pratt in The Seer.(emphasis mine) I want to see what specific teachings of Pratt were repudiated by the First Presidency and which were allowed to stand, since the same First Presidency had previously approved his teaching.
Your source (Gibson) does not say specifically that this “God had intercourse with Mary” doctrine was repudiated, but that “some of the doctrines” published by Pratt were. Since the “God had intercourse with Mary” doctrine is in the written record, please provide documentation as to which of the doctrines Pratt taught were repudiated and which were affirmed, and by whom.

It should be plain to all who have read the above quotes that just because an Apostle stated a view or opinion, his idea is in no wise binding on the Church, nor can it be quoted by enemies or friends of the Church as doctrine.

There is a canonization process by which latter-day Saints adopt new doctrine and scripture. Items which have not undergone this process are not regarded by Latter-day Saints as doctrine, irregardless of when they are published.How does this process work, and where we can read these “official” Mormon doctrines – and the dates they became “doctrine”?

And I ask, if the original “12 Apostles” of the LDS church can’t teach Mormon doctrine, who can?

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Paul DuPre wrote:

BTW, according to LDS doctrine, every apostle (including Orson Pratt) is a prophet, seer and revelator.
Orson Pratt was appointed by Brigham Young (a prophet) to be the official publisher of LDS doctrine to the gentile world.

Thanks, Paul! Much obliged! JMJ Jay

 

[Exporter]

BYU-BOY,

I know that you as an LDS man, will use many of the same words that Cathlics use, but you have a different meaning of those words. I notice you are trying very much to explain LDS Theology, but you get things so convoluted,you loose the meaning.

I am just a poor little old man who wants to understand. May I suggest that you write in concise, terse sentances? Please. It is difficult to read your posts for meaning…please.

I have a copy of the BOM, and have read it. I have talked to adult male Mormans about questions a Catholic would ask. May I ask you for the real Morman (truthfull by the way) to answer these Qs?

1. Tell me, a poor Catholic, what is the Holy Trinity, be complete please.
2. Tell me if God has a female God with Him, and they produce spirit children by sexual means.( Don’t hesitate, we will not be offended)

 

[BJ_Colbert]

BYU-BOY
Thanks for your knowledge, which I do not have. I have been trying to defend our faith, with sincerety and the truth as I understand it, and these people do not understand faith. You have to know they are not wanting knowledge of what we believe, they only want to tell you what they think Mormons believe and as you can see it is the most grievous of lies and half truths. They will never listen honestly without conjuring up what they have heard or read out of context that proves in their warped view that we don’t know what we believe. They being Catholics are all knowing about all religions and especially about Mormons. So write your thesis and don’t waste too much time it is easy to get caught up with trying to explain. They are only looking for an explanation that will prove we are crazy and wrong.
Ask something about cheese sandwiches in the shape of the Virgin Mary, which sold for $28,000.00 on ebay last week and they say “Why do you think that had anything to do with Catholics?” Obviously the reason I do is because the Catholics are the only church that is looking for the Vigin Mary in trees, horses, cheese sandwiches and dirty windows.
You and I know that a reasonable Catholic would not believe that the Virgin would appear in a cheese sandwich, but some Catholics obviously believe that. Are we to judge the whole Catholic church by the weird beliefs of a few??? I believe Catholics are Christians and for the most part good people. I formed that view from good friends who practice their Catholic faith and set a good example for all Catholics to follow, and my dear husband who is the sweetest most faithful Catholic I know. If it weren’t for this I might judge all Catholics by the few who write to this forum to spout their hatred. Ex- Mormons are the worst of all, because they twist our beliefs and add poison, without any sense of Christlike behavior. Chris-wa, Tdnick, and a few others are sincere and truly seem to want to have discourse. They are good Christians and good Catholics. Chris-wa has a Mormon wife and he is very good at explaining the Mormon religion as he understands it, in a fair way. If only the others were as fair, it would be a pleasant discourse.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Ella:

Dear Byu-Boy, you feel that your question is new to Catholics.

That question being: “If our Lord and Savior personally came to you and told you that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God would you believe?”

But this question is not new. In fact many of our Catholic Mystics have been asked a question like this. For the basis of this question is to ask that if Jesus contradicted the commands of His Church, would we follow? Yet the answer that pleases Him, over and over again, is OBEDIENCE TO THE CHURCH. He told Faustina to wear a hair shirt. She asked her superior, who said ‘no’. So she did not. And Jesus was pleased that she obeyed, not Him, but her surperior.

She was smart to follow the Church in this case, as Jesus would not ask her to wear a hair shirt. He does not ask frivolous things like that of anyone. She used her own good judgement to decide this message was not from Jesus. He would never test us in such a way. If Jesus asks you to do something or tells you something is right and true you better believe it.

 

[cestusdei]

BJ, pastries in the shape of Mary? Almost as strange as golden plates found by a treasure hunter that no one ever really got to see that told of Jews in America who left a civilization that no one has ever found.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

regarding post #19
I have said before and I say it again, I have never in my 62 years of being a Mormon ever heard of God having sex with the Virgin Mary, what blasphemy. If you read something, somewhere, by someone who was a member of the LDS church, I have never read it and it has never been taught to me, in Sunday School. Seminary, Primary, Relief Society, or any other of the numerous classes I attended daily and weekly throughout my life. I guess that goes to show Catholics really do know more about Mormons than Mormons. Maybe, we should start a thread called Catholics who know more about the LDS church and what they believe than devout members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Occasionally, in a Sunday school class a teacher will say something that he personally believes, but all teachers and members of the church are cautioned about mixing personal opinion with official church doctrine. In the past there has been much misunderstanding caused by this, and as you can see it is difficult to rectify it. But, as long as we have free agency and personal opinion(and I hope it is a long time) there will be those who will jump on any little thing to prove whatever point they are trying to make with regard to trashing the Mormon church.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

cestusdei:

BJ, pastries in the shape of Mary? Almost as strange as golden plates found by a treasure hunter that no one ever really got to see that told of Jews in America who left a civilization that no one has ever found.

Joseph Smith was not a treasure hunter, but a 14 year old farm boy with no education.
The Mayan indians tell of a tribe that disappeared from the Yucatan area and archeologists are now discovering cities that date from 600 BC, so you never know what the future holds. Thin brass plates were very common for keeping records in biblical times and gold was more common in the Americas, so gold was used for the same purpose. Read the “Lost Empires” put out by National Geographic in about 1982. Great reading, and information on the civilizations that existed on the American continent up to possibly 20,000 years before Christ. They say that acheologists have only just begun uncovering the lost civilizations, so I don’t know if you know something they don’t and have researched the subject thoroughly, but if you have, you should contact National Geographic with your findings.

 

[Pug]

You have to know they are not wanting knowledge of what we believe, they only want to tell you what they think Mormons believe

My post was a request for knowledge or clarification. It was not designed to offend. I do care about what Mormons believe, because I know several. It is true, however, that I do not plan on joining the LDS.

 

[Exporter]

BYU-BOY,

I know that you as an LDS man, will use many of the same words that Cathlics use, but you have a different meaning of those words. I notice you are trying very much to explain LDS Theology, but you get things so convoluted,you loose the meaning.

I am just a poor little old man who wants to understand. May I suggest that you write in concise, terse sentances? Please. It is difficult to read your posts for meaning…please.

I have a copy of the BOM, and have read it. I have talked to adult male Mormans about questions a Catholic would ask. May I ask you for the real Morman (truthfull by the way) to answer these Qs?

1. Tell me, a poor Catholic, what is the Holy Trinity, be complete please.
2. Tell me if God has a female God with Him, and they produce spirit children by sexual means.( Don’t hesitate, we will not be offended)

 

[Exporter]

B J Colbert,
You said ,“Joseph Smith was not a treasure hunter, but a 14 year old farm boy with no education.”

This is not true in a strict sense! Your statement is not true!

Joseph Smith went with his father two times into Pennsylvania where the father led a hunt for gold. One several other ocassions they, along with another, I think it was a brother, dug along streams and sifted for gold in New York state.

If hunting for gold is treasure hunting…the the poster is correct, Joseph Smith was and is a treasure hunter.

Joseph Smith’s father was known by the neighbors as a man who would rather try to make a “quick” dollar than to farm the land.

 

[BYU-BOY]

Pug:

My post was a request for knowledge or clarification. It was not designed to offend. I do care about what Mormons believe, because I know several. It is true, however, that I do not plan on joining the LDS.

Pug, I know that your response was geniune and no worries my intentions on this post are not to try to convert anyone to Mormonism. As stated earlier I don’t believe that conviction to God comes through the trivial words of men. I will try to answer all questions as best as I can. I will be focusing on my first 10 questions that I promised I would answer. Each question takes me quite a bit of time to thoroughly search and write on. So, please don’t be offended if I don’t respond right away to your questions. I will do my best. As important as it is to me for you and others to understand my religion I have to also consider my university studies.

I must also say that I am quite honored to have the imfamous Paul Dupre on this thread. You cannot go anywhere on the web with Anti-Mormon literature without seeing Paul’s name somewhere to be found.

 

[aimekuelmc]

There have been several questions that have been re-occurring on this forum concerning Mormonism. As a devout Mormon who sincerely believes the doctrine of his church I will labor to do my best to answer the questions and assumptions that have been stated. Yet, I refuse to argue who is right and who is wrong. My intentions are to show you what the LDS Church believes and teaches from the perspective of one of its devoted members.

An admirable objective. I admire the faith of many Mormons I have encountered. But most especially, I admire their family values.

I have had two Mormon missionaries come to my home, and to the elder one I posed this question:
“Do you really believe that you will be a god of your own planet in the afterlife?” (something I had been told - I wanted to find out if it were true or not, since I don’t like to accept secondhand information as true.)

In essense, his answer to me was yes, that certain members would have their own planet to be god over. Certain conditions had to be met first, though.

I then spoke to a man who was a Mormon bishop (no longer a Mormon now), and he said the missionaries were wrong, but did not give an answer to my question.

Now, if the missionaries who are sent to homes across the country cannot be trusted to tell the Mormon beliefs, who can I trust to explain their beliefs?

So, I’ll pose it to you:

“Do Mormons really believe that you will be a god of your own planet in the afterlife?”

MC

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

Joseph Smith was not a treasure hunter, but a 14 year old farm boy with no education.

BJ - Not to be one of the people you so criticized in one of your previous posts, for I have enjoyed the (more civilized) conversations that have gone on between LDS members and us Catholics. However, you have made the statement above a couple of times in various ways, and I have yet to have you, nor any of the other LDS members here answer my post from a previous thread…

About Joseph Smith being a child…Joseph Smith was born 12/23/1805. In 1820 is when JS asked God which church he should join. That makes him 14 at that time. But, it wasn’t until 1823 that JS claimed he was visited by Moroni…which now makes him 18. And the angel told him that he was not ready yet to retrieve the plates, which he was finally able retrieve in 1827 after several visits from Moroni. So…at the time JS began “translating” the BoM he was not 14, but 21! (That’s assuming he started before 12/23/1827)

 

[Katholikos]

BJ Colbert:

regarding post #19
I have said before and I say it again, I have never in my 62 years of being a Mormon ever heard of God having sex with the Virgin Mary, what blasphemy. If you read something, somewhere, by someone who was a member of the LDS church, I have never read it and it has never been taught to me, in Sunday School. Seminary, Primary, Relief Society, or any other of the numerous classes I attended daily and weekly throughout my life. I guess that goes to show Catholics really do know more about Mormons than Mormons. Maybe, we should start a thread called Catholics who know more about the LDS church and what they believe than devout members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

BJ, regardless of what you may have been taught, twice I have posted the exact words of Orson Pratt, one of the 12 original Apostles of the LDS church, chosen personally by Joseph Smith, appointed by Brigham Young to teach official doctrine, teaching in 1853, that God had intercourse with the Virgin Mary and produced Jesus. This was the official doctrine of the Mormon church – at least at that time. You can read the words of Orson Pratt for yourself, either on line or at your local LDS bookstore, or you can order his writings from the Deseret bookstore online.

Page 57 of Gospel Principles (1988 edition), published by the LDS church, says: “He [the angel] told her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35). Thus, God the father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and an immortal father. He is the only one to be born in this way on the earth. That is why he is called the Only Begotton Son. He inherited divine powers from his Father.” I suppose this translation is from Joe smith’s “corrected” version of the KJV. This is the very same doctrine taught by Orson Pratt, minus the details. “God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ.”

You regard the truth about Joseph Smith and your religion as “hate.” But all I feel is sadness that Joseph Smith is still conning people even from his grave, and that nice people like you and BYU-BOY are enmeshed in his deception.

But, as long as we have free agency and personal opinion(and I hope it is a long time) there will be those who will jump on any little thing to prove whatever point they are trying to make with regard to trashing the Mormon church.

Trashing or truth-telling? Study the life of Joseph Smith and the history of the LDS church objectively, from real historians, then decide.

Peace be with you.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

aimekuelmc:

An admirable objective. I admire the faith of many Mormons I have encountered. But most especially, I admire their family values.

I have had two Mormon missionaries come to my home, and to the elder one I posed this question:
“Do you really believe that you will be a god of your own planet in the afterlife?” (something I had been told - I wanted to find out if it were true or not, since I don’t like to accept secondhand information as true.)

In essense, his answer to me was yes, that certain members would have their own planet to be god over. Certain conditions had to be met first, though.

I then spoke to a man who was a Mormon bishop (no longer a Mormon now), and he said the missionaries were wrong, but did not give an answer to my question.

Now, if the missionaries who are sent to homes across the country cannot be trusted to tell the Mormon beliefs, who can I trust to explain their beliefs?

So, I’ll pose it to you:

“Do Mormons really believe that you will be a god of your own planet in the afterlife?”

MC

It’ll be interesting to see how Mormons answer your question. But you can read it for yourself in Gospel Principles, published by the LDS church, 1988 edition, pages 289-293, in the section called “Exaltation.”

QUOTE: These are some of the special blessings given to exalted persons:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 75).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fullness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heaven Father and Jesus Christ has all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge … END QUOTE

The requirements for exaltation include being a Mormon male, being married in the temple, obeying the Word of Wisdom (no “hot drinks” etc.), giving 10% and more of your income to the LDS church for your lifetime, being baptized for your dead relatives, and more. Women become goddesses and produce spirit-children only if they have been “sealed” to their god-to-be husband in the temple ‘for time and eternity.’ Then they can share his heavenly kingdom with him.

Joseph Smith taught that polygamy was also required for ‘exaltation.’ That teaching has since been suppressed.

“Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life that God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possess all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the father of spirit children and is a creator. We can become Gods like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation” p. 289-90, Gospel Principles. This is an instruction book for adults.

JMJ Jay

 

[moira]

I have a question. Galatians 1: 6-9 says…“But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel of heaven should preach a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!” Since you say that the BOM was given to J. Smith by an angel, how do you reconcile this?

Another question. Why baptisms for the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:29 says…“what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead?”

 

[tkdnick]

I think we might be running this thread a little less than effective…BYU-BOY posted the issues he wished to discuss on this thread, and more and more different issues keep getting posted. I suggest we stick to the issues posted in the original post, and if we have other questions we should start new threads. This thread seems to be hard enough for BYU-BOY considering he’s a student, plus obviously having his own life away from here. Why don’t we let him post his answers to the issues and then respond to them. Adding new issues only makes it harder to get the BYU’s position on the original ones.

 

[moira]

tkdnick:

I think we might be running this thread a little wrong…BYU-BOY posted the issues he wished to discuss on this thread, and more and more different issues keep getting posted. I suggest we stick to the issues posted in the original post, and if we have other questions we should start new threads. This thread seems to be hard enough for BYU-BOY considering he’s a student, plus obviously having his own life away from here. Why don’t we let him post his answers to the issues and then respond to them. Adding new issues only makes it harder to get the BYU’s position on the original ones.

O.K. Sorry. Didn’t mean to get off topic.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[tkdnick]

moira:

O.K. Sorry. Didn’t mean to get off topic.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hey, I totally understand because I have tons of questions too. I just want to hear the responses to the original ones first.