The Truth: We Are Saved By Faith Alone

[Stylteralmaldo]

**Col 2:6 **Therefore as you have **received **Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, (notice we receive, THEN walk in good works)

Looking at this in the context of Eucharistic union with Jesus, you have helped solidify my Catholic beliefs. Thanks!

 

[kaycee]

We are complete in Christ… and yet we have verses like:

Romans 14:15, 20

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:9-10

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

The work of God destroyed? A brother for whom Christ dies perishing? That certainly contradicts what you’re arguing.

This has nothing to do with salvation. This is talking about wounding a brother’s conscience.

We also have a verse like:

Philippians 3:12-14

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

God Bless,
Michael

When read in context the meaning is clearer and not at all working for salvation.

7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith

Paul then talks about being perfected, sanctified, the Christian race to be like Christ.

Phil 3:16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Is not the debt of sin eternal damnation?

NO. What you speak of is the wages of sin.

We are not ever, even when still lost in our sins, under a debt to sin. We owe it nothing. We are under a penalty for it. And Christ pays that penalty for us, that is why we are under a debt to Christ (as a consequence of the propitiation of our sin).

 

[Grace_Seeker]

We ARE Complete in Christ, There is nothing lacking.

**Col 2:6 **Therefore as you have **received **Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, (notice we receive, THEN walk in good works)
7. having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
9. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10. and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11 and in Him you **were **also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us **all **our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Ah, now I am actually in agreement with our Catholic brothers (well for at least one post). Yes, we are complete in Christ, but we are also called to holiness. It is true, Christ’s act which wins salvation for us is complete and does not need to be added to; in fact cannot be added to. But we are still called to be more than justified, the calls is to also be sanctified. Can one live the Christian life and not be entirely sanctified? Certainly. Can one live the Christian life and not progress toward sanctification? NO!

 

[justasking4]

Gamera;2525548]You inject the word “only” into the text where it doesn’t appear. Ephesians 2:8 says, “faith,” not “only by faith” as you infer. The phrase “faith alone” appears only once in Scripture and that is to reject it: in James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

What does James mean by his use of the word “justified”? Is he using it in the same way Paul does in Romans and Ephesians where we are “justified” in our standing before God or is he using it in different way here where he is saying that our works are a demonstration that we are saved already in Christ?

Notice also that Ephesiains 2:8 says we are saved through faith, not by faith.

Scripture says we are saved through faith, but Scripture never says we are saved by faith alone. That is a man-made doctrine.

Where in any verse in scripture does it ever say that a person can be saved by anything but by faith in Christ alone?

 

[justasking4]

Where in Scripture does it say that baptism is a work?

Edwin

It doesn’t

 

[justasking4]

Then how do you interpret Galatians 6:4?

“Each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason to boast with regard to himself alone, and not with regard to someone else” Gal 6:4

It as clear as day that Paul acknowledges works as endemic to salvation.

What is the context for chapter 6? Its not about salvation but about giving help spiritually.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Tiber Swim Team - Class of… of… of… Okay, so I’m not part of the Tiber Swim Team! I don’t like swimming anyway.

Mike…if you don’t like swimming I could get you a nice cruise ship ride across the English Channel to Canterbury :dancing:

North

 

[Maui71]

Grace Seeker,

As mine is the immediate post before yours, and you neither quoted another nor address your post to anyone else, I take it that you are then addressing me.

Let me start by saying you were totally wrong in assuming that my post was a reply to yours.

Logic. You don’t know the meaning of the word

Second let me thank you for insulting me that was mighty Christian of you. I will give you my other cheek to slap now.

Now being that my post was not intended for you I will clarify a point I was not saying one is saved by works alone but that you cannot divorce works from faith. That one is saved through Faith and Works because they are opposite sides of the same coin.

My request for an explicit statement on a verse for “faith alone” is because it is not common, as in James 2: 14-26, to find such an explicit statement about scriptural concepts. Thus, I am implying in my statement that one can reconcile the concept of faith and works throughout the scriptures. However, the same cannot be said about faith alone through out the scripture. I cannot see how the concept of faith alone is reconciled throughout the bible.

And why do you bring up topics like “sola scriptura” that are not even part of the discussion? Doing so serves no purpose except to obfuscate the thoughtful discussion of others preceeding your comments.

Had you read the post immediately after my original post you would see I was correcting that mistake. As I had said earlier the post was not for you. It was late and I had started to read the thread and I wanted to reply to someone. I forgot you have to hit quote to answer the individual directly and not the post button. So I had not realized there were 16 pages at that time. So when I posted it came up 8-10 pages from were I was reading. Any way I am off from my reply.

And this is just arrogance. I don’t even believe you really want to be told what the fathers of the Church did or didn’t believe. I think you only want to hear the party line. The sad thing, that you don’t realize, is that the party line is not as old as you think it is. If you had actually read the early church fathers you would realize that, but if you think otherwise it must be that again you are only reading not for insight into what the church fathers actually thought, but for those salient comments that happen to be supportive of your already predetermined view of what you wanted to see. But that is for another thread.

I do want to be told what the early church father taught not what they did or did not do. Those are two separate and different items. I really do want to know if any early church father did teach faith alone. You do not believe in faith alone but don’t you want to know when that idea was first taught?

As to toting the party line that for me is the profession of faith.

While I don’t think it is true that the Church was wrong or that hell had defeated it for 1500 years, there is nothing either illogical or unholy about that possibiltiy…But 1500 years of being wrong, that doesn’t make this verse untrue. It is perfectly logical that the Church could be wrong for not just 1500 years but even 15,000 years; still, in the end, it will prevail because Christ is the ultimate victor. And that is all that that verse actually makes as a claim. So, please don’t go telling me to go looking for explicity statements when you don’t even know how to read what is there.

And you called me arrogant?

However, you did not answer my question; did any bishop in 1,500 years teach faith alone? I tried to imply that the church could not be teaching beliefs that began with the Apostles and be wrong. Sure if you want to step into a secular world then anything is logical and possible if you argue it enough and have no room for divine intervention. Being that the topic at hand was faith I thought it was a common denominator that sacred traditions were taught by the Apostles and the scriptures were divinely inspired and that the apostles and their followers wrote the epistles and taught the earliest Christians. Thus their instructions could not be wrong and practiced wrong for 1,500. Maybe I used the wrong illustration.

As I said before my post was not for you. Unfortunately I did not see who I was replying to and I am not going to go back now and look. If I might be a bit forward and make a suggestion please if you are not sure someone is directing a post at you why don’t you send them a private message and ask, especially if the post doesn’t make sense when it is taken in the contexts of your prior post. My prior post makes no sense as a reply to your original post.

Anyway I hope this clears it up for you but more important I forgive you for insulting me.

Regards,

Maui

 

[Bishopite]

And when we speak of faith working, then I have no argument. Just as I have no problem with your reference to Abraham having faith in Genesis 12. Note that in Genesis 12 Abraham has faith and then begins his journey. I know that there is no specific mention of faith in Genesis 12, but his actions show that he trusted in God. Trust is a synonym of belief and faith. If Abraham had not trusted God, he never would have started on the journey. It is faith, which is then put to into action. This is what faith is, and this is what I understand James to be all about. If we only SAY we have faith, but it can’t be seen, then it is at best dead faith, and dead faith doesn’t save, only living faith, and living faith is always active, hence is always going to be evidenced by work. Of course it begins with faith, but if never gets active it is unworthy or truly being termed faith, it is the useless faith of those who in the last day will call out to Jesus, “Lord, Lord” and to whom he will respond, “Go away. I never knew you.”

But that is still a long way from those who say that works produces faith. I don’t buy that, and there are some here trying to sell it.

I hope you all don’t mind if I jump in here and give my two cents worth (which isn’t much). I’m not sure if or who said that works produce faith but that’s not the Catholic theological understanding of faith and works nor any other Christian understanding. Whoever said that works produces faith is essentially advocating pelagianism and is what the council of Orange in canons 18-20 condemned in 529 AD and you are correct to condemn the whole works produces faith idea. Surely we agree that we are saved by grace (sola gratia) through faith and works which God prepared beforehand for us to accomplish (Eph 2:8-10, Phil 2:12) being faith is a verb not an adjective.
And you mentioned Mt 7: 21-23 that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will be saved but those who do the will of God. That is true, and shows us that our justification is one of action not just words alone. Jesus said we must “do the will of God” not just say we are doing it and Paul speaks of in sort of book-end statements in Rom 1:5 and 16:26 of the “obedience of faith.”
In Mt 25: 34-46 we see a distinction made between the righteous and the dammed or the sheep and the goats story. Jesus says the righteous in verses 34-40 “did” what He asked them to do; affirming what He said to do back in Mt 7:21-23 so they are active and obedient in their faith.
The goats/dammed said they “did” but what they did wasn’t out of love for God, but for self-seeking glory, so we don’t just have to do good works, which we receive from Gods grace in order to do them, but we have to do them with and for the love of God as a selfless sacrificial act of love as Gal 5:6 says…faith working through love and which is the New Testament covenential application of Jesus who said to “love one another.”
St. Augustine said that when God crowns His works in us, He is merely crowning His own works (paraphrasing).

Now in regard to faith alone, the classical reformation version of sola fide is antinomian in nature (antinomian means not having to obey any moral code–or anti-moral law) for those who don’t know. Martin Luther affirmed antinomianism saying nothing could divide the bond he had with God after being justified. This is what the council of Trent correctly condemned and what Catholicism and most every Protestant Christian group would also condemn.

 

[LittleDeb]

When read in context the meaning is clearer and not at all working for salvation.

7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith

Paul then talks about being perfected, sanctified, the Christian race to be like Christ.

Phil 3:16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

(red emphasis by me)

So here it is again! “**not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,” **This, again, is speaking of ‘works of the law.’ Is there a Protestant out there who knows the difference between ‘good works’ and ‘works of the Law?’

Works of the Law precede Christ on earth. He fulfilled the Law. St. Paul is addressing a small sect of Jews in Philippi who are still insisting on ‘works of the Law.’ He is saying that it is not righteousness if it is “on my own derived from the Law.” He is saying that a Work is only righteous if it, “is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

St. Paul is helping define the difference between a Work and a ‘work of the Law’ in this section. It is exactly about the role Works play in Salvation.

That is why the Catholic Church teaches Faith AND Works. Faith doesn’t produce Works, just as Works don’t produce Faith. They are completely distinct, yet cannot be apart from one another for Salvation. It takes both.

I will grant you that Faith precedes Works. It has to. Until one has faith in Christ all “works” are outside of Christ and therefore empty. That is why the second part uses the words “on the basis of faith.” It is step one. One must have Faith to do good Works, but does NOT result in Works. Just as one must do Good Works if one has Faith already, but Works do not result in Faith.

Works are just as important to our salvation as faith is, if not more so. As I said before: “Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.”

 

[LittleDeb]

(red emphasis by me)

So here it is again! “**not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,” **This, again, is speaking of ‘works of the law.’ Is there a Protestant out there who knows the difference between ‘good works’ and ‘works of the Law?’

I wanted to clarify this opening line in my last post. It is in no way meant as an insult towards kaycee. It is said in frustration over something I did not even realize Catholics and Protestants are divided about.

I had always thought that all of Christendom knew that Scripture speaks of works of the law and of Works. I thought the Protestant error was from not knowing which times were which in Scripture. I have only recently realized that many of our separated brethren aren’t taught that they are two different things.

I apologize if I sound hostile in any way. That is not my intent. I appreciate the thought and effort of kaycee’s post.

 

[SFLCatholic]

What is the context for chapter 6? Its not about salvation but about giving help spiritually.

I disagree. Its about your own salvation.

Its a discourse by Paul about safeguarding that salvation by following Jesus commandment that we love others as we love ourselves. Isn’t this the greatest commandmment?

Paul does say in this first verse that we should help our brothers. Yes you are right on that point. But the rest of the chapter is about doing good works to keep your salvation. Once saved, is not always saved.

“Brothers, even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one in a gentle spirit, looking to yourself, so that you also may not be tempted” Gal 6:1

Here Paul is cautioning us that we should not be tempted by the transgression of others. Meaning, stay the course in your good works and faith so that you do not lose your salvation. Working to help your brother also helps you. Its a good work.

“Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ” Gal 6:2

Paul again cautioning us. He is reminding us of Jesus commandment to love others as you love yourself. In essence, you are your brothers keeper. Fulfill the law of Christ so that you may remain on the road to Eternal Life.

" … the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit." Gal 6:8

Pretty clear that Paul is again warning us how to gain and keep our gift of Salvation.

“Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up.” Gal 6:9

Paul once more warning us that we must keep up our good works to safeguard our Salvation.

Have you read Galatians Chapter 6? If so, what is your interpretation. In detail please.

 

[mikeledes]

This has nothing to do with salvation. This is talking about wounding a brother’s conscience.

So how does a mere wounding translate to someone being destroyed or perishing? There is a big difference between being wounded and perishing, between wounding the work of God and destroying the work of God. Perish/destruction in the Bible is often used as a synonym for damnation. Moreover, the passage clearly states that the brother perishes as a result of his stumbling/sin, not that his conscience is merely wounded.

1 Corinthians 8:9-10

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother PERISH, for whom Christ died?

Sure doesn’t sound like a mere wounding of conscience to me.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What is the context for chapter 6? Its not about salvation but about giving help spiritually.

Since we’re talking about Galatians 6, lets look at another couple of verses from that same chapter

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[TraditionalCath]

=BrandenRush;2452270 You are on dangerous ground. Get out before its too late. I’ll never go back… ever.

it is a violation of CAF’s rules to try to get Catholics out of the faith.
see this:

Proselytizing Catholics or encouraging them to leave the Church

see this also:

Members are not allowed to be disrespectful of anyone’s faith or religion, whether it is Catholicism or not. If a member is disrespectful, he will generally be counseled first and suspended if he persists in disrespectful postings.

Members are free to discuss, dialogue, question, disagree with, and debate the doctrines and dogmas of both Catholicism and non-Catholic religions. However, all discourse must be civil and charitable.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=162027

(underlines made by me for emphasis) branden, please be mindfull of the rules. we are all subject to them.

 

[kaycee]

I wanted to clarify this opening line in my last post. It is in no way meant as an insult towards kaycee. It is said in frustration over something I did not even realize Catholics and Protestants are divided about.

I had always thought that all of Christendom knew that Scripture speaks of works of the law and of Works. I thought the Protestant error was from not knowing which times were which in Scripture. I have only recently realized that many of our separated brethren aren’t taught that they are two different things.

I apologize if I sound hostile in any way. That is not my intent. I appreciate the thought and effort of kaycee’s post.

Hi LilDeb

Thanks for your concern. Protestants surely understand the difference between “works of the Law” and “good works” or “works of righteousness”. The protestant view and I believe the biblical view is that any attempt to add works of any kind to merit salvation is no longer Grace received by Faith for justification.

Rom 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a** remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. **

Certainly the Romans were not under the Mosaic law.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Paul talks about the Law of sin and death, this is a universal law for all humanity, not the mosaic law.

Rom 8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Not by works of righteousness which we have done,** but according to His mercy He saved us** (Titus 3:5).

Paul does talk about the Jewish law, but clearly the intention is all Law, all works of righteousness, all works cannot and do not add to acheiving justification.

 

[mikeledes]

When Saint Paul uses the word “The Law,” he is referring to the Mosaic Law, with all of its ordinances, ceremonies, and rituals. Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law, they are under the Law of Christ:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

The Law of Christ is the perfection and fulfillment of the Mosaic Law. What is the Law of Christ?

James 2:8

8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

John 15:12

**12"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. **

And by this Law we shall be judged:

James 2:12-13

**12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. **

And we see this judgement in action in Matthew 25:32-40

**32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35’For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38’And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39’When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ **

And that’s why Jesus states in Luke 10:25-28:

**25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” **

And Romans 2:6-7 states:

6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

God Bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

Since we’re talking about Galatians 6, lets look at another couple of verses from that same chapter

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

God Bless,
Michael

Are you advocating salvation by works only?

 

[SFLCatholic]

Since we’re talking about Galatians 6, lets look at another couple of verses from that same chapter

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

God Bless,
Michael

Its a great Chapter isn’t it. Certainly explains in more detail Paul’s statement regarding being saved by faith alone so that one may not boast.

Sorry, the scriptural reference escapes my memory at the moment.