The Uncreated Qur'an

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planten said:
**swariffin, that is no excuse for church not to have any center or direction of place of worship. Jews and christians and Muslims all believe that God is Omnipresent. Yet the Jews and Muslims have a direction. It proves that the religion of Jews and Muslims is right. The religion created by the earlier christians did not have any bearing.

They did not know anything. They did not know that their religion will spread all over the world and that christians will be praying all over the world. Otherwise (had they known it) they would have surely given you some direction. **
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If Allah is Omnipotent, why do you need a center of direction anyway? I know the answer, “Because Allah said so…”
 
swariffin said:
If Allah is Omnipotent, why do you need a center of direction anyway? I know the answer, “Because Allah said so…”
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** swariffin, it is enough for us to do what Allah told us to do. You people are doing many things that nobody told you to do. That is (e.g.) believing that there are three gods in one God. Nobody said that to you. But you have made it up because you feel like that from the few verses of the bible.

That is your own assumption/ deduction, not any advice or order from the God. Yet you do it. Why?
The reason for facing the Ka’abah is given in verses 140 to 152 of chapter 2 of Quran. It will be presented to you some time. But wait out please. The reason is given there and it is another miracle of the Quran.

It proves that the christians will, sometime later, raise this question and blame the Muslims for facing this way and that way. I want to know if Jews had a direction then why the Muslims cannot have a direction and center of prayers? Please do not give any flimsy reason / allowance for the Jews because you are not a Jew… Simply think over why you do not have any center of faith. Rome is not your center. Is it?**
 
As others have pointed out to you in this very thread, Planten, some Eastern Christians DO face towards Jerusalem when they pray. I don’t know of any Western Christians who do the same, but if they do, then okay. I don’t understand why this is an issue for anyone, Christian or Muslim.

The question of the Kaaba from Christians has to do with primarily two ideas:
  1. Why did the direction change from Jerusalem to Mecca? What does this change tell us about Muhammad and his theology?
and
  1. What is the significance of the Kaaba? Is God there? If He isn’t, then why did He apparently ask you to pray there? If He is, then doesn’t this create more problems for Islam? God is in a stone! And you worship at it! It sounds familiar to a Catholic who is used to hearing that we “worship” statues (sometimes from Muslims) when we know we do not.
Personally, I don’t care where Muslims pray because I believe that God is everywhere. At the same time, I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a traditional direction to face when praying, if it helps you to focus on God…just don’t make the direction the focus. To me it is similar to the way that all the Abrahamic religions have various positions that they assume when praying, and various reasons for doing that. If they also have good reasons for facing a certain direction, then fine. It only seems strange to me if they make some claim like “face towards Mecca or God won’t listen to you”, or “if you do not face Jerusalem you are not really praying” or something like that. I don’t know if anyone really says these things or not.
 
Salaam/peace
dzheremi said:
… What is the significance of the Kaaba?
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The Family of Imran

Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka/ Macca, blessed and a guidance for the nations [3.96]
 
I am not sure that I understand the metaphorical language used in that passage, and anyway it does not answer any of the rest of the questions related to “what is the significance of the Kaaba”.

Please explain in regular English, not Qur’anic translations that make very little sense to a non-Muslim.
 
swariffin said:
At least the Jew can give a reasonable answer. Not just simply saying “God says so”.

I am really wonder about your consistency. You told me that you believe that God is omnipresent. That is why the Church never teach to pray to a specific place/object. Are you sure about your believe that Allah is omnipresent??
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**Thanks swariffin. My only hope is now hanging on the Jews that they also believe God to be omnipresent.If they do then we can go to them and ask them “when God is omnipresent then why do you face to Jerusalem?.”

I believe this matter of omnipresence has nothing to do with facing any place. You said that jews can give a reasonable answer. So can we. Who will decide that Jews answer is more reliable and that of Muslims is not enough reliable?. Will you decide that? Please give us some allowance too. Thanks.**
 
rad said:
But ancient christianity does they face east, orthodox christians do even now…toward jerusalem or the rising sun in the east ,were Christ the Son of God the true eternal light shall decend with a shout and a mighty trumphet,at his second coming as supreme lord and God to judge the living and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end…👍😃 😉
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** rad, thanks for the help. It seems that in this matter of direction, Jews and christians and Muslims are united.
We Muslims are being pestered for facing Makkah during our prayers. I hope it is not such an important fault of the Muslims…???**
 
This thread is still going on, is it?

What’s the topic du jour? It doesn’t seem to be the Qur’an anymore…
 
Sister_Amy said:
This thread is still going on, is it?

What’s the topic du jour? It doesn’t seem to be the Qur’an anymore…
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All the Islam threads seem to drift. SOmetimes, I think it is either more of a language issue or a lack of understanding how to discuss one topic at a time.
 
ralphinal said:
All the Islam threads seem to drift. SOmetimes, I think it is either more of a language issue or a lack of understanding how to discuss one topic at a time.
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People are just so curious about Islam, I guess, that they can’t help asking their questions, even if they are off-topic… 🙂
 
Sister_Amy said:
People are just so curious about Islam, I guess, that they can’t help asking their questions, even if they are off-topic… 🙂
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I am bad about leading conversations off topic because I ask about a point raised in a post. I do not do it to evade the question.

Many times, that is why these threads drift. SOmeone will not know the answer or how to respond, so they change the topic.
 
ralphinal said:
I am bad about leading conversations off topic because I ask about a point raised in a post. I do not do it to evade the question.

Many times, that is why these threads drift. SOmeone will not know the answer or how to respond, so they change the topic.
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😃
 
If a book can be called uncreated and eternal so can a man, and so this particular doctrine of (Sunni) Islam helped me to accept the reality of Jesus Christ.
 
planten said:
** swariffin, it is enough for us to do what Allah told us to do. You people are doing many things that nobody told you to do. That is (e.g.) believing that there are three gods in one God. Nobody said that to you. But you have made it up because you feel like that from the few verses of the bible.

That is your own assumption/ deduction, not any advice or order from the God. Yet you do it. Why?
The reason for facing the Ka’abah is given in verses 140 to 152 of chapter 2 of Quran. It will be presented to you some time. But wait out please. The reason is given there and it is another miracle of the Quran.

It proves that the christians will, sometime later, raise this question and blame the Muslims for facing this way and that way. I want to know if Jews had a direction then why the Muslims cannot have a direction and center of prayers? Please do not give any flimsy reason / allowance for the Jews because you are not a Jew… Simply think over why you do not have any center of faith. Rome is not your center. Is it?**
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My center of direction of prayer is to God, Planten. Is that clear enough to you? I believe God is omnipresent and you told me that you believe God is omnipresent too. So, i can face everywhere I want and anywhere I am, and still I will face God.

Why keep on believing that God order you to face somewhere that God is not there?? Either there is faulty on your logic, or there is a faulty of the source of such order.

No way a TRUE GOD ever ask people to face away from Him. No way you call yourself submission to God if you face away from Him.
 
planten said:
**Thanks swariffin. My only hope is now hanging on the Jews that they also believe God to be omnipresent.If they do then we can go to them and ask them “when God is omnipresent then why do you face to Jerusalem?.”

I believe this matter of omnipresence has nothing to do with facing any place. You said that jews can give a reasonable answer. So can we. Who will decide that Jews answer is more reliable and that of Muslims is not enough reliable?. Will you decide that? Please give us some allowance too. Thanks.**
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Ok Planten, I will stay on your answer that “Allah said so…” In this case, my conclusion in my post #124 is correct. So, Allah ordered you to face to a building made of stone, called Kaaba, where Allah is not there. What is the reason? Wallahuallam according to you.
 
swariffin said:
Ok Planten, I will stay on your answer that “Allah said so…” In this case, my conclusion in my post #124 is correct. So, Allah ordered you to face to a building made of stone, called Kaaba, where Allah is not there. What is the reason? Wallahuallam according to you.
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** swariffin, It is your wrong notion that you face Allah. The word used in Quran has double meaning. It has a physical meaning of facing… and another meaning to keep in mind…
But the problem with christains is much more. They have all irrational beliefs. The conception, the birth of Jesus, the namesake marriage of Mary and so many other things. Just because they have to believe all those things. the punishment given to innocent Jesus to redeem the sins of others, the multi nature Jesus who is a man and a son of man, he is a god and son of God, all at the same time. All these beliefs are irrational. But they believe that there are three gods in One God. All these beliefs without a trace in the bible.

But we Muslims have a command in the quran to face the Qiblah at Makkah at all times so that people do not make a joke of us. We are uni-directional facing a place of worship, not because Allah lives there. It is exactly like the Jews used to face Jerusalem (And they still do it). There should be no question about any command of Allah when the christians are believing in things without any command being there.**
 
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