The Universal Church

[lanman87]

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.”

Wouldn’t this make Baptist and Methodist (I picked those because they are the two largest non-Catholic churches in the USA) part of the Catholic church as well. Unless, of course, you deny that Christ is in those churches as well.

I would also add that the Evangelical model of the universal church is also, that it is found where Christ is present. In particular, by the indwelling Holy Spirit of its members. I once read the definition of the universal church as “God’s People, Empowered by God’s Spirit, Doing Gods’ Work, all for the Glory of God.”

 

[Vico]

Vico:

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.”

Wouldn’t this make Baptist and Methodist (I picked those because they are the two largest non-Catholic churches in the USA) part of the Catholic church as well. Unless, of course, you deny that Christ is in those churches as well.

I would also add that the Evangelical model of the universal church is also, that it is found where Christ is present. In particular, by the indwelling Holy Spirit of its members. I once read the definition of the universal church as “God’s People, Empowered by God’s Spirit, Doing Gods’ Work, all for the Glory of God.”

The Baptist and Methodist are called ecclesial communities. Catholics do not subscribe to denominationalism. A person can be validly baptised but not have access to the sacrament of penance, therefore not receiving the fullness of the sacraments, for example.

 

[lanman87]

The Baptist and Methodist are called ecclesial communities. Catholics do not subscribe to denominationalism. A person can be validly baptised but not have access to the sacrament of penance, therefore not receiving the fullness of the sacraments, for example.

Okay, so where Christ is, is not necessarily the Catholic church?

 

[adf417]

Other denominations in the non-Catholic world that claim to be the one and only have the same problem convincing others that the CC has.

…asJesus himself did also. - Jn 6:60-66

Peace!!!

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The Baptist and Methodist are called ecclesial communities. Catholics do not subscribe to denominationalism. A person can be validly baptised but not have access to the sacrament of penance, therefore not receiving the fullness of the sacraments, for example.

Okay, so where Christ is, is not necessarily the Catholic church?

Catechism

830 First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” …

To have the fullness of the Christian faith one should be baptised validly and have access to all seven sacraments, all sacramentals, and to indulgences, which are only available in total, to those in the Catholic Church, and cooperate with the grace, thereby remaining in a state of habitual grace and doing good works such that one will receive the promised reward in heaven.

 

[lanman87]

To have the fullness of the Christian faith one should be baptised validly and have access to all seven sacraments, all sacramentals, and to indulgences, which are only available in total, to those in the Catholic Church, and cooperate with the grace, thereby remaining in a state of habitual grace and doing good works such that one will receive the promised reward in heaven.

Okay, so now I know, according to the Catholic church being filled with the Holy Spirit and having Jesus as Lord is not enough to make you a part of the body of Christ.

 

[Wannano]

lanman87:

Vico:

The Baptist and Methodist are called ecclesial communities. Catholics do not subscribe to denominationalism. A person can be validly baptised but not have access to the sacrament of penance, therefore not receiving the fullness of the sacraments, for example.

Okay, so where Christ is, is not necessarily the Catholic church?

Catechism

830 First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” …

To have the fullness of the Christian faith one should be baptised validly and have access to all seven sacraments, all sacramentals, and to indulgences, which are only available in total, to those in the Catholic Church, and cooperate with the grace, thereby remaining in a state of habitual grace and doing good works such that one will receive the promised reward in heaven.

So it’s kinda like Catholics and non-Catholics are all plugged into the same electrical line but the Catholics have access to full power so they get 110 volts but the non-C’s only get around 85 volts but it is still enough to make the machinery function?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

To have the fullness of the Christian faith one should be baptised validly and have access to all seven sacraments, all sacramentals, and to indulgences, which are only available in total, to those in the Catholic Church, and cooperate with the grace, thereby remaining in a state of habitual grace and doing good works such that one will receive the promised reward in heaven.

Okay, so now I know, according to the Catholic church being filled with the Holy Spirit and having Jesus as Lord is not enough to make you a part of the body of Christ.

No, note that the comment used the word fullness. Those that are baptised have received the mark in the soul by the Holy Spirit and are in the Church, however some may die without grace so be damned and other with grace and so be saved. The state can change after baptism.
Catechism

265 By the grace of Baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”, we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

 

[Vico]

…
So it’s kinda like Catholics and non-Catholics are all plugged into the same electrical line but the Catholics have access to full power so they get 110 volts but the non-C’s only get around 85 volts but it is still enough to make the machinery function?

It may not be sufficient because if a person falls into mortal sin after baptism, and does not have perfect contrition, the sin may not be forgiven before death. God loves unconditionally but forgiveness is conditional upon repentance.

It is not pass fail type judgment but will be more or less demerit in the state of hell, and more or less merit in the state of heaven.

Matthew 5

17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Wannano]

It kind of seems like we must be talking past each other somehow.

 

[De_Maria]

This is a spinoff from a topic in another thread.

Are those that have faith in Christ,

As judged by God or by man? For example. Do you mean? “I Ianman, have faith in Christ, therefore I’m saved”?

Or do you mean, “God looked into His heart, saw his faith and credited it to him as righteousness”?

have been made new creations, are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and worship and serve God

Do you mean that they received the Holy Spirit because they had faith in God and asked for Baptism and received it, thus obtaining the gift of the Holy Spirit and the made new creatures by the washing of regeneration?

Or did they simply claim all these things for themselves?

by loving God and loving others, members of the universal church/the body of Christ?

Whether they love God or anyone, will be judged by God.

Even if they are not part of the Catholic church and worship/serve elsewhere?

That is for God to decide. But Scripture says:

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Those who disobey the Church do not obey the Gospel of God nor His Son.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I would say that Church does recognize every Baptized Person to be somehow IN the Church- though imperfectly if they are in heresy or schism. There is imperfect union and communion with Body of Christ, though they are technically part of Catholic Church yet it is not full as they are not Catholics.

My sources, though implicit, are documents that state Pope has “authority over all Baptized” throughout history- which also means that Vicar of Christ, visible head of the Church has authority over them and hence they are part of Church. Fact they do not recognize that authority leads to fact they do not partake in Body of Christ fully. Submission to Roman Pontiff and True Faith are two requirements one needs to fulfill to be able to fully utilize graces coming with Catholic Church and hence be true member of Body of Christ.

 

[Vico]

It kind of seems like we must be talking past each other somehow.

Analogies often fail.

 

[Wannano]

Especially when they point out a truth a person does not want to own.

 

[Vico]

Especially when they point out a truth a person does not want to own.

What truth is that?

Note that the analogy of voltage is not suited for the marks of the Church which are four:

• one
• holy
• catholic
• apostolic.

There is one Church of Christ which includes all the particular churches, sister churches, and ecclesial communities. These do not all have the four marks of the Catholic Church and some (particular churches, sister churches, and ecclesial communities) exist only for a time whereas the Church of Christ is forever. Membership in the Mystical Body of Christ includes those that are justified but excludes those that were damned at their particular judgment at death. The full Christian initiation is threefold including the Holy Mystery of Baptism, Holy Mystery of Chrismation or Holy Mystery of Confirmation, and the Holy Mystery of Communion.

 

[lanman87]

Do you mean that they received the Holy Spirit because they had faith in God and asked for Baptism and received it, thus obtaining the gift of the Holy Spirit and the made new creatures by the washing of regeneration?

Or did they simply claim all these things for themselves?

I will relay the normal experience for those in the tradition I was raised.

Someone shared the gospel with them, that they are sinners and their sin separates them from God and the way to bridge that separation is to trust in Christ and repent of sin and call on the name of the Lord. At which point the person prays and agrees with God that they are a sinner and ask for forgiveness and pledge to live for Jesus. At that point they will go to the local church (if they are not already there) and make a public profession of faith in Christ in front of the congregation and ask to be baptized. A few weeks later, (when family and friends are invited) they are baptized by immersion in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

When they make a profession of faith the start attending a new believers class, then go to Bible Studies and Sunday School, regularly attend worship services, and slowly start to get involved in the ministry of the church. Maybe they volunteer in the children’s ministry or sing in the choir or greet people at the door. They also give financially to the ministry of the church and to support missions. Maybe they even feel led to go on a short term missions trip to share the Gospel in another city or even another country.

Are those people part of the Universal church, the Body of Christ?

 

[De_Maria]

I will relay the normal experience for those in the tradition I was raised.

Someone shared the gospel with them, that they are sinners and their sin separates them from God and the way to bridge that separation is to trust in Christ and repent of sin and call on the name of the Lord. At which point the person prays and agrees with God that they are a sinner and ask for forgiveness and pledge to live for Jesus. At that point they will go to the local church (if they are not already there) and make a public profession of faith in Christ in front of the congregation and ask to be baptized. A few weeks later, (when family and friends are invited) they are baptized by immersion in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

they are baptized by immersion in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.*

Therefore, yes.

*When they make a profession of faith the start attending a new believers class,

I assume you’re backtracking to the first paragraph.

then go to Bible Studies and Sunday School, regularly attend worship services, and slowly start to get involved in the ministry of the church. Maybe they volunteer in the children’s ministry or sing in the choir or greet people at the door. They also give financially to the ministry of the church and to support missions. Maybe they even feel led to go on a short term missions trip to share the Gospel in another city or even another country.*

Just as an aside, but these are the works that must be done in preparation for justification. See Council of Trent VI, Chapter VI

when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism

Are those people part of the Universal church, the Body of Christ?

Yes. If I understand it correctly, you backtracked in this second paragraph, back to the point at which they made a profession of faith. In your illustration, that is a step towards Baptism. Thus, this person is the equivalent of a Catechumen. He is not yet born again, but is, so to speak, conceived in the Faith. Thus, if he should die, would be considered to have been “baptized by desire”.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

The word “assures”, here, does not imply “absolute assurance”. As this is still a judgment reserved for God alone.

 

[De_Maria]

@Ianman87

Caveats:

In their baptism, did they intend the same thing the Church intends?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

Immediately after their Baptism, did they preach against unity with the Catholic Church?

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

 

[lanman87]

I assume you’re backtracking to the first paragraph.

Sometimes there is a gap of several weeks to even several months between the profession of faith and baptism. They don’t wait to be baptized before starting a new believers class of some kind. In my case it was a series of meetings with my Pastor where we went over a new believers handbook, which was a very elementary explanation of what it means to be a follower of Christ.

 

[lanman87]

In their baptism, did they intend the same thing the Church intends?

I don’t know how to answer that question. We baptize new believers because Christ told us to and because it is a vital part of the faith of a new believer as they make a visible and conscious act of obedience to God. It is a celebration of the faith of a new believer and a physical display of the power of God to change our hearts. It is also a way to physically and outwardly represent what has happened inwardly and spiritually, not only in the heart and life of the new believer but also what has happened to all of us who follow Christ.

Baptism is normally done by a Pastor, however there are exceptions. The words spoken during baptism are something like this:

Pastor: Do you (baptism candidate) believe in Jesus Christ and is He your Lord and Savior?
Baptism Candidate: I do, or Yes, sometimes Yes, I believe in Jesus. In my current church the baptism candidate may also say or read a short testimony about how they came to faith in Christ and how it has effected their life.
The the Pastor will say, “Then upon your profession of faith in Christ I baptize you my brother/sister in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”
The Pastor will then immerse the new believer and when they come up out of the water the pastor will say, “Buried with Him in Baptism, raised to walk in a newness of life”.
At that point the congregation will usually clap and maybe even cheer.

When several people are baptized, especially adults, it is a very moving service.

Immediately after their Baptism, did they preach against unity with the Catholic Church?

I spent the first 19 years of my life in the church I was baptized and I never remember the Catholic church even being mentioned. I’m not saying it wasn’t mentioned, but if it was it wasn’t memorable enough for me to remember.