The Universal Church

[Lenten_ashes]

Matt. 18

Look at it closely, Wannano. It’s saying where 2 or more are gathered there is power in his name – he is there. Amen.

AND if the matter cant be settled among multiple Christians who are gathered in his name, take it to the Church – and if they refuse to listen EVEN to the Church, kick them out. The Church speaks and the matter is settled. That word EVEN screams FINAL authority, imo.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Matt. 18

Look at it closely, Wannano. It’s saying where 2 or more are gathered there is power in his name – he is there. Amen.

AND if the matter cant be settled among multiple Christians who are gathered in his name, take it to the Church – and if they refuse to listen EVEN to the Church, kick them out. The Church speaks and the matter is settled. That word EVEN screams FINAL authority, imo.

You and I then have the same understanding. A year or so ago on CAF I was informed that the CC does not do this though, was I misinformed?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Not sure I understand, can you maybe provide an example?

As Catholics we fully understand the authority of the Church. If it’s a matter such as divorce or something then of course that is not something settled amongst ourselves. But if I owe you money or something, it’s a private matter between us and can be settled between us and possibly other believers. I have read the CCC and saw nothing in it that is contrary to this.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

Our priest says that many born-again, Spirit-filled Christians who are not Catholic are still part of the Body/Bride of Christ. They just don’t have all the blessings and sacraments that we do, but they are still Christians and belong to Christ.

 

[goout]

He also put us under the authority of the Church that he established (Matthew 18). That Church still exists, but yes, with developed doctrine that you disagree with.

All doctrine is development. Even biblical fundamentalists accept the development of doctrine, they are just not able to realize it. Christ is the fullness of the faith in his person. Christ is the fullness of revelation.
Doctrine flows out of Christ. The bible itself flows from the grace of Christ, fully revealed in him and through him. Christ is not a book, Christ is a person. The book comes from the person, not the other way around, which is bibliolatry. Before there was the bible, there was the Church.
So everything we know is a development, so to speak, of coming to know Christ.

Who is Christ? Christ is the incarnate Son of God, who took on human flesh in time and space.
Christ instituted a real body, not an imaginary new-age-spirit-group of loosely organized followers. Christ founded a Body that is real and visible, because Christ himself is real and visible, with real human nature.
Christ explicitly institutes a (one) Church and gives the charism of leadership to real human beings.

 

[De_Maria]

You and I then have the same understanding. A year or so ago on CAF I was informed that the CC does not do this though, was I misinformed?

I’m thinking you probably misunderstood. This is the procedure used for judging every heresy in history (that I’m aware of). So, if you could point us to that specific message, we might be able to determine whether you simply misunderstood or whether someone spoke out of turn.

 

[De_Maria]

Vico:

“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” 273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” 274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, 275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

This looks like a contradiction to me. If there are those in other churches and ecclesial communities who have taken advantage of these “means of salvation” and are indeed in a relationship with Christ that has/is/will lead to salvation then how can you say that those people aren’t part of the universal church? Is it possible to be a born again, Spirit Filled Christian and yet not be a part of the Body/Bride of Christ?

If that is the Catholic belief I wills say that doesn’t make any sense to me and I believe it contradicts Biblical Teaching.

It makes perfect sense. The paragraph is taking into account vastly disparate non-Catholic groups. From the Orthodox Church, which is basically Catholic, except for one or two doctrines. To the “lowest” Christology gatherings of some Protestant groups, which have cast away most Christian Doctrine, except for maybe Baptism, like the Pentecostals, which are not even considered “churches”.

 

[steve-b]

This is a spinoff from a topic in another thread.

Are those that have faith in Christ, have been made new creations, are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and worship and serve God by loving God and loving others, members of the universal church/the body of Christ? Even if they are not part of the Catholic church and worship/serve elsewhere?

Good question. This link that follows, might be offering more than you asked for. If so just say so

You describe in your example, a contradiction. A member who is really not an incorporated member, but a member of a non-Catholic group.

So

Valid Baptism, makes one a part of the body of Christ. AND one is to follow through with formal incorporation into the Catholic Church

For example:.

From Vat II, Lumen Gentium​

1. …. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

From: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

So

If one is validly baptized yet doesn’t formally enter the Catholic Church, that is a failure to follow through with the grace of the sacrament and its intent to be fully incorporated in the Catholic Church,.

AND

As it says, one who knows… and refuses to join and / or be fully incorporated in, or refuse to remain fully incorporated in , the Catholic Church, sins against charity by that act …… and they could not be saved.

 

[lanman87]

So if I get this part correctly

In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church . Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

That those who are validly baptized enter into the Catholic church. Regardless of tradition/denomination. Yet, they stop being Catholic when they know the Catholic church was made necessary by Christ, and refuse to enter or to remain in it?

What about those that never know the Catholic church was made necessary by Christ? Which is the vast majority of Protestant Christianity. Does their ignorance keep them Catholic? That is, part of the Universal church, despite attending a Baptist, Methodist or other denominational church?

 

[steve-b]

So if I get this part correctly

steve-b:

In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church . Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

That those who are validly baptized enter into the Catholic church. Regardless of tradition/denomination. Yet, they stop being Catholic when they know the Catholic church was made necessary by Christ, and refuse to enter or to remain in it?

What about those that never know the Catholic church was made necessary by Christ? Which is the vast majority of Protestant Christianity. Does their ignorance keep them Catholic? That is, part of the Universal church, despite attending a Baptist, Methodist or other denominational church?

Baptism is a sacrament designed to bring people into the Catholic Church. It’s the entrance sacrament. It’s given only once in life. OTOH, The Protestant revolt 500 yrs ago, deformed that sacrament’s meaning. They chose to be outside the Church, and taught Baptism means something other than what the sacrament actually means .

When those who are validly baptized but NOT incorporated in the Catholic Church, decide to fully incorporate themselves into the Catholic Church, they are NOT Re baptized. They start in
RCIA, and on Easter they are officially incorporated into the Church .

If ignorance is completely innocent, then one is not guilty of fault.

However, ignorance isn’t always considered innocent

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[De_Maria]

So if I get this part correctly

steve-b:

In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church . Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

That those who are validly baptized enter into the Catholic church.

Yes.

Regardless of tradition/denomination.

Yes.

Yet, they stop being Catholic when they know the Catholic church was made necessary by Christ, and refuse to enter or to remain in it?

Two different things. Let me reconstruct.

Yet, they can not be saved

Spoiler

they stop being Catholic

when they know the Catholic church was made necessary by Christ, and refuse to enter

If they did not enter through Baptism, they were not Catholic to begin with. They can not be saved, though, if they know the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ and yet refuse to enter.

**Yet, they stop being Catholic when they know the Catholic church was made necessary by Christ, and refuse to enter or to remain in it? **

Once baptized, there is an indelible mark which can not be removed by anyone. What God has brought together, no man can tear asunder. Those who reject the Catholic Church after becoming Catholic, will have a harsher punishment.

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

What about those that never know the Catholic church was made necessary by Christ?

They are less culpable and may possibly be saved. But it will be tough.

Which is the vast majority of Protestant Christianity. Does their ignorance keep them Catholic?

I’m assuming you mean that they are validly baptized. God’s justice keeps them in His grace. But the Scripture holds:

Luke 12:48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

That is, part of the Universal church, despite attending a Baptist, Methodist or other denominational church?

In my opinion, yes.

 

[goout]

In Christ we are brought to perfection, in the unity of his love. His love manifests itself completely, even through human institutions like the Church. The Church brings together heaven and earth in one community. So the Church has a human dimension, with all that entails. That includes leadership charisms, a temporal structure, a physical presence in this world.
If we believe in Christ, then we must by definition accept that one-ness that calls all people together as one. Christ does not leave us an invisible spirit-concept of a church. His Body is as real as the blood he shed on the cross.

The unity of Christ’s love is not minimalist. Many people say “I can just do this and that…”
“I can just pray to God on my own terms. I can just be baptized any denomination”. Even Catholics say to their own peril “I just have to go to Mass Sundays”.
As if God wants our minimal faith. No. We are called to be radically united in one body.
And I’m still waiting for some other denomination to demonstrate that it is Christ’s Mystical Body, visible on earth.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Are people who are good and live a loving, generous life going to heaven, even if they are not religious? That is for God to answer, not me.

 

[Wannano]

In Christ we are brought to perfection, in the unity of his love. His love manifests itself completely, even through human institutions like the Church. The Church brings together heaven and earth in one community. So the Church has a human dimension, with all that entails. That includes leadership charisms, a temporal structure, a physical presence in this world.
If we believe in Christ, then we must by definition accept that one-ness that calls all people together as one. Christ does not leave us an invisible spirit-concept of a church. His Body is as real as the blood he shed on the cross.

The unity of Christ’s love is not minimalist. Many people say “I can just do this and that…”
“I can just pray to God on my own terms. I can just be baptized any denomination”. Even Catholics say to their own peril “I just have to go to Mass Sundays”.
As if God wants our minimal faith. No. We are called to be radically united in one body.
And I’m still waiting for some other denomination to demonstrate that it is Christ’s Mystical Body, visible on earth.

With all charity I would say that most non-Catholics are also waiting for the CC to demonstrate the same thing. Please, no malice intended.

 

[goout]

goout:

In Christ we are brought to perfection, in the unity of his love. His love manifests itself completely, even through human institutions like the Church. The Church brings together heaven and earth in one community. So the Church has a human dimension, with all that entails. That includes leadership charisms, a temporal structure, a physical presence in this world.
If we believe in Christ, then we must by definition accept that one-ness that calls all people together as one. Christ does not leave us an invisible spirit-concept of a church. His Body is as real as the blood he shed on the cross.

The unity of Christ’s love is not minimalist. Many people say “I can just do this and that…”
“I can just pray to God on my own terms. I can just be baptized any denomination”. Even Catholics say to their own peril “I just have to go to Mass Sundays”.
As if God wants our minimal faith. No. We are called to be radically united in one body.
And I’m still waiting for some other denomination to demonstrate that it is Christ’s Mystical Body, visible on earth.

With all charity I would say that most non-Catholics are also waiting for the CC to demonstrate the same thing. Please, no malice intended.

Admittedly so.
Perhaps we can agree that the Mystical Body of Christ is actually instituted in time and space, even thought we disagree where it is. Because even that admission seems to be anathema to most of the current Christian movement. Most of the modern Christian movement believes in what amounts to new age spirituality, which is gnostically separated from the full human element of the Church.
“I admit there is a Church, but the word can’t really be defined, and wherever you point to it, it’s not really there.”
As if Christ never was incarnate, and as if human beings are just spirit dudes longing to lose the material world.

If you’ll admit the Church actually has a real instituted presence, then a responsibility opens up.

 

[lanman87]

Most of the modern Christian movement believes in what amounts to new age spirituality, which is gnostically separated from the full human element of the Church.
“I admit there is a Church, but the word can’t really be defined, and wherever you point to it, it’s not really there. ”
As if Christ never was incarnate, and as if human beings are just spirit dudes longing to lose the material world.

I don’t understand this statement. American Evangelicalism defines the universal church as every person who has genuinely been born again by the Spirit and is “In Christ and Christ in them”. The church is visible and located whenever they gather together in His name. Be it in the First Baptist Church in a small southern town or in an underground house church in China.

 

[mcq72]

Are those that have faith in Christ, have been made new creations, are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and worship and serve God by loving God and loving others, members of the universal church/the body of Christ? Even if they are not part of the Catholic church and worship/serve elsewhere?

Well, yes and beautifully put.

But…from Catholic perspective, one can not say there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. Yet, as you to your correct portrayal of evidenced spiritual realities in other churches, qualifications must be given, so as to not contradict the former statement.

In my opinion, the Catholic Church must show itself as the institution to which all others owe salvation to, as in unity to her, derived from her. Without her a soul probably wont make it, unless by ignorance. Yet the Church piously says it leaves it in God’s hands. The only non ambiguity is the sureness of the institution and her necesary sacraments.

So she keeps her motto, that despite spiritual life in other churches, there is no salvation outside of her. She is not only shepherd for Catholic souls but asserts herself over all Christ professing souls…in my opinion.

 

[mcq72]

I admit there is a Church, but the word can’t really be defined, and wherever you point to it, it’s not really there. ”

Strange, for the opening post defines “church” very well and quite visible, both locally and universally.

 

[De_Maria]

goout:

Most of the modern Christian movement believes in what amounts to new age spirituality, which is gnostically separated from the full human element of the Church.
“I admit there is a Church, but the word can’t really be defined, and wherever you point to it, it’s not really there. ”
As if Christ never was incarnate, and as if human beings are just spirit dudes longing to lose the material world.

I don’t understand this statement. American Evangelicalism defines the universal church as every person who has genuinely been born again by the Spirit and is “In Christ and Christ in them”. The church is visible and located whenever they gather together in His name. Be it in the First Baptist Church in a small southern town or in an underground house church in China.

So, let’s say that I and my Catholic brother have a problem understanding the Word of God. He and I will go to the Catholic Church for instruction.

Let’s say you and I have a problem with the Word of God. I take you to the Catholic Church for instruction. Anyone that I have a problem with, I take to the Catholic Church.

Let’s say you have a problem with another non-Catholic. To whom do you run? You have an invisible Church. No actual hierarchy. Just a bunch of people claiming to know what Scripture says according to their own opinions.

 

[lanman87]

So, let’s say that I and my Catholic brother have a problem understanding the Word of God. He and I will go to the Catholic Church for instruction.

Let’s say you and I have a problem with the Word of God. I take you to the Catholic Church for instruction. Anyone that I have a problem with, I take to the Catholic Church.

Let’s say you have a problem with another non-Catholic. To whom do you run? You have an invisible Church. No actual hierarchy. Just a bunch of people claiming to know what Scripture says according to their own opinions.

I take someone to my Elders and local church for instruction. I believe their opinions are correct and the Catholic churches and other churches are wrong so I will submit to the teaching of my local Church. I am not bound by the Catholic church or the church down the street.

The big difference is my local church, and most American evangelicals churches, have far less dogma that must be agreed upon than the Catholic church. And I would say that 99% of the time the dogmatic beliefs of the major American Evangelical churches are the same. That is why Baptist and Methodist and Assembly of God and Presbyterians, will at times, worship together, pray together, and support each others ministries. We have some different beliefs and customs but non that will prevent us from being untied in faith and the cause of Christ.

And when some group comes along like the JW or Mormons who do break the dogmas of American Evangelicalism then we are also united in proclaiming that they are not teaching the Gospel of Christ.