The Universal Church

[Wannano]

The word “assures”, here, does not imply “absolute assurance”. As this is still a judgment reserved for God alone.

That must be re-assuring!

 

[Wannano]

@Ianman87

Caveats:

In their baptism, did they intend the same thing the Church intends?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

Immediately after their Baptism, did they preach against unity with the Catholic Church?

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Are the caveats lifted?

 

[De_Maria]

Huh? must be 10 ch

 

[Wannano]

Ian asked if these people are part of the Body of Christ to which you answered “yes” then presented caveats to which he responded and you gave a “like” to his response, so I wondered if the caveats are lifted or satisfied, and now we have the assurance (pun intended) that your answer is "yes.

 

[commenter]

I will relay the normal experience for those in the tradition I was raised.

Someone shared the gospel with them…

Thank God!
No need for a “Magisterium” evident.

But suppose that particular Someone included the Book of Mormon (allegedly originally composed in ancient times) as part of “the gospel”. To reject Mormonism forces you to fall back on some authority that determined the canon.

But suppose the gospel sharer was a Jehovah’s Witness, using the same NT canon you use. You would likely argue that their sharing of the gospel might be “wrong” - meaning their Sola Scriptura goes beyond the boundaries of Tradition. But some authority defined that (Catholic?) Tradition, the great majority of which “orthodox” Protestant denominations implicitly accept, and define as “cults” those groups that reject too much of it.

It’s not “the Church”, it’s the Magisterium that draws the boundaries that orthodox Protestants mostly remain within. It’s like a lighthouse that a ship’s crew can observe. They may not want to go exactly to that spot, but it helps them calibrate their own position, in relation to the rocks and to other ships.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

If the CC didn’t date back to 33 A.D. Then I’d dismiss their claim just like I dismiss the IFB, CoC and LDS’ claims. RCC and EO’s are the only one’s with real pedigree to make such claims.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

… and now we have the assurance (pun intended) that your answer is "yes.

Hahahahaha.

Did you know that your link may give anyone opening a virus? I just got a warning. If that was done on purpose, it sure does away with the idea of Christian love in action. True Christianity is what happens when the rubber meets the road.

 

[Crusader13]

The problem I always run into is in regards to how we define the universal Church and it’s necessity for salvation. That’s truly what matters and yet there is a constant desire to be charitable and humble to non Catholics so we end up drawing a larger circle around the circle that is supposed to be the Catholic Church and we say that we’re all part of this universal Church so long as we’re in the larger circle.

Typically there are three main commands that are given for our salvation: a faith in Jesus Christ as God the Son in the Holy Trinity, baptism and the Eucharist. These three are only found within the Catholic Church, because only the Catholic Church believes in the real presence.

So if Protestants don’t believe in the real presence and some don’t believe in baptism as a requirement, we tell them it’s ok because you’re part of the larger circle of the universal Church and if you persist in your belief you indeed will be saved.

So this understanding no longer makes being Catholic necessary. We’ve even gone so far as to suggest even a faith in Jesus as God is no longer required. So in all honesty if non Catholics are saved why do we insist on being the One true Faith when belief in such is no longer required?

 

[commenter]

if non Catholics are saved why do we insist on being the One true Faith when belief in such is no longer required?

We - you and I - are not the One True Faith. It is still true. Individuals may or may not be reliable, but the Faith is.

 

[Vico]

… Other denominations in the non-Catholic world that claim to be the one and only have the same problem convincing others that the CC has.

According to Catholic teaching any Christians who, banded together refuse to accept the entire doctrine or to acknowledge the supreme authority of the Catholic Church, constitute merely a religious party under human unauthorized leadership.

Weber, N. (1912). Sect and Sects. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13674a.htm

 

[Wannano]

If the CC didn’t date back to 33 A.D. Then I’d dismiss their claim just like I dismiss the IFB, CoC and LDS’ claims. RCC and EO’s are the only one’s with real pedigree to make such claims.

It is hard to see and believe that the CC in its current form existed in the NT times. I can’t see how the EO’s have any more pedigree than any other branching from the original CC.

Jesus’ message for individual hearts is exactly the same as it was at Pentecost. Collectively changed individuals make up the Church that was started by Jesus. Each individual will give an account individually when he meets his Maker.

 

[Crusader13]

We - you and I - are not the One True Faith. It is still true. Individuals may or may not be reliable, but the Faith is.

I meant we as in the Catholic Church. I agree it is still true but unfortunately this truth is no longer required to be believed or emphasized.

 

[commenter]

commenter:

We - you and I - are not the One True Faith. It is still true. Individuals may or may not be reliable, but the Faith is.

I meant we as in the Catholic Church. I agree it is still true but unfortunately this truth is no longer required to be believed or emphasized.

Read the encyclicals of St Pope JP2, which take into account V2,as well as the entirety of Catholic tradition, and genuine Ecumenism.

 

[Vico]

…
I can’t see how the EO’s have any more pedigree than any other branching from the original CC.
…

True sacraments and apostolic succession are the reason. This includes the Assyrian Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox, Polish National Catholic Church, and some of the Old Catholics.

FOURTH QUESTION

Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term “Church” in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?

RESPONSE

The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. “Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all – because of the apostolic succession – the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds”[13], they merit the title of “particular or local Churches”[14], and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches.[15]

“It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature”.[16] However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches.[17]

On the other hand, because of the division between Christians, the fullness of universality, which is proper to the Church governed by the Successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him, is not fully realised in history.[18]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...ith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

 

[De_Maria]

Did you know that your link may give anyone opening a virus?

No.

I just got a warning.

Hm? I wonder why my system didn’t give a warning? Are you on Windows or Mac? I’m on Mac.

If that was done on purpose, it sure does away with the idea of Christian love in action.

I just thought it was a funny gif. Is it Christian of you to accuse someone of malintent?

True Christianity is what happens when the rubber meets the road.

You just met it. Did you pass the test?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Did you know that your link may give anyone opening a virus?

No.

I just got a warning.

Hm? I wonder why my system didn’t give a warning? Are you on Windows or Mac? I’m on Mac.

If that was done on purpose, it sure does away with the idea of Christian love in action.

I just thought it was a funny gif. Is it Christian of you to accuse someone of malintent?

True Christianity is what happens when the rubber meets the road.

You just met it. Did you pass the test?

I never levelled an accusation at all as I prefaced it with IF.

 

[De_Maria]

I never levelled an accusation at all as I prefaced it with IF.

Did I say that you leveled an accusation? I asked a hypothetical question. So, since neither of us did anything intentional, we can chalk it up to, “no harm no foul.”

So, what do you use, Windows or Mac? I ditched Windows because they’re susceptible to viruses. The machines are cheaper. But the information on the machines is more valuable to me than the machines themselves. I’ve had no more problems, with Mac. Thank God.

 

[Wannano]

I should not have allowed myself to think that a gentle guy like you would do such a thing.

I have windows.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

He also put us under the authority of the Church that he established (Matthew 18). That Church still exists, but yes, with developed doctrine that you disagree with.

 

[Wannano]

He also put us under the authority of the Church that he established (Matthew 18). That Church still exists, but yes, with developed doctrine that you disagree with.

Read Matt. 18 this morning. I am curious how you understand verses 19 and 20.