The Universal Church

[lanman87]

Jesus at the Last Supper told His Apostles “ Do this “ as He was offering His Sacrifice.

Yes, but he told them why to “Do this”. It wasn’t to re-offer His sacrifice, it was to “remember me”.

 

[Michael16]

No, @lanman87.

It wasn’t a memorial. Christ said explicitly that this is My Body, this is My Blood. He wasn’t speaking metaphorically.

 

[lanman87]

He wasn’t speaking metaphorically.

Yes, He was. Consider the following:

When He said “This is my body…” He was holding the bread and wine in his hands. Don’t you think that means He was speaking figuratively?

Jesus also said that He is a door, that He is light, that He is the true vine… Was he being literal in those statements as well?

Psalm 34:8 says Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good!
Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!

Is Psalm 34:8 speaking literally or figuratively?

The fact is, the Bible often uses ingestive language as a figurative way of showing our relationship with the Lord. See Hebrews 5:14, Psalm 119:103, Psalm 63:5, 1 Peter 2:2-3

If all those examples are figurative then why should I believe Christ was being literal and not using a metaphor to demonstrate a spiritual truth?

 

[ziapueblo]

I’m familiar with these writings. Most Melkites I know would say that bishop John Elya of blessed memory was somewhat latinized. He is one of only two bishops that voted against the Zoghby Initiative.
I think it was 23 or 24 that voted for it.

I know I’ve shared this video from the current Melkite bishop, Nicholas Samra:

ZP

 

[Michael16]

You’re right in using the ingestive language in Scripture, @lanman87. Remember: Everything in the OT is preparation for the Jesus.

But, you’re forgetting that earlier in His Ministry, Our Lord said that one must eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man and several of His disciples left.

After they left, Jesus never corrected the remaining disciples, saying: “ Now that those guys are gone, I was really just talking metaphorically. “

You’d think Our Lord would do so if that were the case.

Nope; He was being literal.

 

[lanman87]

After they left, Jesus never corrected the remaining disciples, saying: “ Now that those guys are gone, I was really just talking metaphorically. “

Probably because it was obvious to them that He was speaking metaphorically but those that left didn’t understand the metaphor and took Him literally.

Jesus was using ingestive language just as the Scriptures use it in many places. To show a spiritual longing/truth.

 

[Michael16]

How do you figure, @lanman87?

You just took a clear cut case of the literal truth of the Sacrifice and you made it into something else.

 

[lanman87]

You just took a clear cut case of the literal truth of the Sacrifice and you made it into something else.

How did I do that? I’m not denying (but affirm) that Christ gave up His body on the cross as a sacrifice.

 

[steve-b]

Are we Orthodox united with Rome?

Those reading this post, I’ll just say, Bp John of blessed memory, was very clear when he answers the questioners in general and handling tough questions in particular… Particularly Are we Orthodox united with Rome?

Historically he’s right on the button as he was in the other 2 examples given on my previous post.

His answers are solid and can’t be contradicted by those claiming to be Caholic

 

[Michael16]

@Ianman87,

You’re denying the literal “ This is My Body; this is My Blood given up for you “ Sacrifice and making it into a mere memorial.

I’m not sure how more plainly it can be stated.

Jesus spoke literally; not figuratively.

 

[mcq72]

Jesus at the Last Supper told His Apostles “ Do this “ as He was offering His Sacrifice. Sacrifice is exclusively a priestly function. Even though Christ wasn’t directly calling them priests; He instructed them to offer a sacrifice. Thus, by implication; He made them priests because of what He told them to do.

Well, again a view developed in a church that had long forgotten or remember its Jewish, bloody roots. The temple during our Lord’s and apostles time was a very bloody place ( perhaps we should visit a slaughterhouse than imagine the sounds and smells of the Jerusalem temple of sacrifices).

The apostles gathered for a meal, possibly the passover meal, and the context was not sacrifice, as in priestly function. If anything, and Christ says so also, the context is remembrance, of the sacrifice…to do remembrance, not do sacrfice.

 

[lanman87]

ou’re denying the literal “ This is My Body; this is My Blood given up for you “ Sacrifice and making it into a mere memorial.

I’m not sure how more plainly it can be stated.

Jesus spoke literally; not figuratively.

Your reading something into my words that I did not say. To say the the Lord’s Supper is a memorial (or the Christ is spiritually present in the Lord’s Supper) is not saying that Christ didn’t give up His body and shed His blood as a Sacrifice. Actually it affirms the sacrifice of Christ because that is what the Lord’s Supper causes us to remember, give thanks for and celebrate.

 

[Michael16]

Again, @mcq72; you and Ianman87 are denying the literal words Jesus said: “ Given up for you “ That’s sacrificial language in plain black and white terms.

 

[lanman87]

Again, @mcq72; you and Ianman87 are denying the literal words Jesus said: “ Given up for you “ That’s sacrificial language in plain black and white terms.

Do you think the sacrifice of Christ took place in the upper room? or on the cross?

 

[Michael16]

I still feel like you’re shifting away from the literal Sacrifice and maintaining the Calvinist position of memorial, @lanman87.

True, we all do remember and offer up thanks for Christ.

But to insist that Christ’s Sacrificial language of “ This IS My Body; This IS My Blood “ is simply figurative language is missing the plain meaning of His LITERAL language.

 

[steve-b]

Margaret_Ann:

Tim. 1: 11: Wherein I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles.

Titus 1: 4 et seq.: To Titus my beloved son, according to the common faith, grace and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Saviour. [5] For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:

Yes thank you. As I posted:
"They appointed bishops/presbyters, not as missionaries/apostles, but as overseers of said churches)

And ultimately ONE overseer is over ALL which makes Our Lord’s Church ONE with each other as Jesus commanded not suggested but commanded

AND

That’s from Jesus who established the office of Peter.

 

[Michael16]

Now you’re shifting again, @lanman87.

I’m addressing what happened at the Last Supper and you’re going to other places in Scripture affirming the Sacrifice, while avoiding the plain and literal words of This IS…

 

[mcq72]

After they left, Jesus never corrected the remaining disciples, saying: “ Now that those guys are gone, I was really just talking metaphorically. “

Goes both ways…nor did Jesus strive to keep them from leaving by saying " Wait, I really mean eating me in an unbloody manner"

 

[mcq72]

Again, @mcq72; you and Ianman87 are denying the literal words Jesus said: “ Given up for you “ That’s sacrificial language in plain black and white terms.

Calvary was,is literal. Remembering was, is literal doing.

 

[Michael16]

That’s not going both ways, @mcq72.

You would think in such an important matter as our salvation; Jesus wouldn’t leave things ambiguous and not definitively declare His meaning clearly.