The Universal Church

[Michael16]

@mcq72,

The words of the Institution is the heart of the Eucharist and Christ gave us the Eucharist as the seal of the New Covenant and then went on to His Passion and Death on the Cross.

Both are literal.

 

[lanman87]

I’m addressing what happened at the Last Supper and you’re going to other places in Scripture affirming the Sacrifice, while avoiding the plain and literal words of This IS…

No, I’m saying the Sacrifice of Christ didn’t happen in the upper room when He said, “This is my body…” it happened over the following days when He was beaten and crucified and victory over death was given when He rose again. That is when His body was given for us not in Lord’s Supper in the upper room.

 

[steve-b]

Michael16:

ou’re denying the literal “ This is My Body; this is My Blood given up for you “ Sacrifice and making it into a mere memorial.

I’m not sure how more plainly it can be stated.

Jesus spoke literally; not figuratively.

Your reading something into my words that I did not say. To say the the Lord’s Supper is a memorial (or the Christ is spiritually present in the Lord’s Supper) is not saying that Christ didn’t give up His body and shed His blood as a Sacrifice. Actually it affirms the sacrifice of Christ because that is what the Lord’s Supper causes us to remember, give thanks for and celebrate.

Since your response was to Michael, not me, I have to say I had some questions also in reading your responses.

May I ask then, for clarification, in your own words, so there is no misunderstanding or misreading into words

what exactly is the Eucharist , to you, in your terms ?

 

[Michael16]

The Institution in the Upper Room occurred because Christ wouldn’t have the time to offer up His Body and Blood to the Apostles.

The Institution and the Cross are taken together. Not separately.

 

[mcq72]

But to insist that Christ’s Sacrificial language of “ This IS My Body; This IS My Blood “ is simply figurative language is missing the plain meaning of His LITERAL language.

Yes and no. Indeed we intentionally miss the bread and wine as literal (linguistic nature of metaphor/ figure), but we literally believe the bread and wine to represent a literal Calvary, to literally remember.

The apostles in my opinion did not gather all the consecrated uneaten bread and left over wine and worry what to with it as if Jesus divinity were in them. In fact Christ referred to the cup after consecration still as " fruit of the vine."

 

[Michael16]

So, @mcq72; you’re saying you’re ignoring the plain meaning of the words so you can focus on Calvary?

 

[mcq72]

The words of the Institution is the heart of the Eucharist

Absolutely.

Christ gave us the Eucharist as the seal of the New Covenant

If by seal you mean like an emblem of remebrance. sure. Otherwise the seal is the Holy Ghost in us.

 

[Michael16]

No, @mcq72;

Jesus has said: “ He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood shall have eternal life. “

Take these words into context with the words of the Institution and the memorial and you have the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist.

Christ Himself is the Bread of Life.

 

[mcq72]

, @mcq72; you’re saying you’re ignoring the plain meaning of the words so you can focus on Calvary?

No, I am saying the plain meaning of what bread and wine are is figurative of the literal Calvary.

 

[Michael16]

@mcq72,

You deny several literal statements from Jesus Himself in favor of a figurative interpretation made by men; in order to focus on Calvary.

That’s not consistent exegesis.

 

[ziapueblo]

He as his opinions just as his former boss does:

“We are an Eastern Church in communion with Rome and faithfully so, yet which wants to remain faithful to the pure, Orthodox spiritual tradition. I make bold to say that we are an Orthodox Church with the little or big plus of communion with Rome, with the Pope and our Holy Father Benedict XVI who presides in primacy and charity. Treat us as a real Eastern Church, just as you would the Orthodox on the day when the much longed for union takes place!” -Patriarch Gregorios III Laham, on letter “ecclesiology and ecumenism”

Or

Patriarch Sviatoslav Shevchuk of the UGCC: “We are an Orthodox Church, with Orthodox theology, Liturgy, spirituality and canonical tradition that chooses to manifest this Orthodoxy in the spirit of the first Christian millennium, in communion with Rome.”

ZP

 

[mcq72]

Jesus has said: “ He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood shall have eternal life.

To which i will paraphrase Augustine by saying leave your teeth and belly behind, for we eat Him by and when we have faith in Him.

 

[Michael16]

Now you’re abandoning Scripture by going to cherry picking a Church Father to support an interpretation made by men in the 16th century. Nice, @mcq72

 

[mcq72]

Christ Himself is the Bread of Life.

Christ is not bread and vice versa, though we spiritually eat His words and person. Chew on that now…lol

 

[Michael16]

@mcq72,

Christ Himself said that He is the manna from heaven.

 

[steve-b]

Michael16:

But to insist that Christ’s Sacrificial language of “ This IS My Body; This IS My Blood “ is simply figurative language is missing the plain meaning of His LITERAL language.

Yes and no. Indeed we intentionally miss the bread and wine as literal (linguistic nature of metaphor/ figure), but we literally believe the bread and wine to represent a literal Calvary, to literally remember.

The apostles in my opinion did not gather all the consecrated uneaten bread and left over wine and worry what to with it as if Jesus divinity were in them. In fact Christ referred to the cup after consecration still as " fruit of the vine."

The last supper was a Passover meal, that Jesus said He wanted to celebrate with His apostles… That meal is a liturgy. It has ongoing stages in the meal that take place. Jesus did change the liturgy of the Passover by instituting the Eucharist .

AND

Jesus also ordained His apostles at the meal, to have the power and authority to DO exactly what Jesus did at the Supper. To Change bread (BTW Jesus used unleavened bread) + wine, into His body and blood.

Where did He do this you ask?

Lk 22:19 Jesus said

do this……. ποιεῖτε

Do what?

Definition:
(a) make, manufacture, construct, (b) do, act, cause, to appoint or ordain one, to change one thing into another,

Jesus ordains His apostles to do what He is doing here,

AND

Unless a person receives the Eucharist faithfully they have no life in them. Not my words, they come from Jesus John 6:53

 

[mcq72]

You deny several literal statements from Jesus Himself in favor of a figurative interpretation made by men; in order to focus on Calvary.

What is wrong with focusing on Calvary?..furthermore what is wrong with focusing on His return, that He mentions at the Supper, to have a more perfect union? Why some say folks get so much into the imperfect now, Christ in transubstantiated bread, as in the central focus, at expense of the much better future and culmination of our covenant, of literally being with Him as He is. The covenant aim is transcendant, future looking.

 

[Michael16]

Because @mcq72; of Saint John 6:53-54.

 

[mcq72]

Christ Himself said that He is the manna from heaven.

Yes and they all died in wilderness. Literal eating does not stop death. When you eat properly of Him you will not die as they in wilderness. We all still die even after eucharist eating. We live spiritually by spiritual eating. It is a figurative eating.

 

[Michael16]

So, @mcq72; you deny Jesus’ literal words in Saint John 6:53-54?

You didn’t deny ignoring literal statements from Jesus in favor of figurative interpretations made by men. To be a serious Biblical scholar and exegete; you must follow the text itself to where it leads; not favoring interpretations and then finding evidence for those interpretations.

That’s plain bias.