The Unprogressive Progressive

[Jennifer123]

I honestly do not know, never having had an abortion. A close friend of mine is quite glad she terminated – if she hadn’t, she’d be dead (the doctors told her ‘either the fetus dies, or you both do’).

To some women, perhaps; others regard it as a cure. How is it deleterious to society – other than fostering a concept of ethicality you disagree with?

You can say that all you like, but it’s not going to stop people from doing it. Animal instincts are a pretty tough force to overcome; as long as sex comes with the chance of impregnation, there will be unwanted children and danger to women.

‘Just the way we were made’? What? That thought leads to the idea that rape is just something to be put up with if it can’t be avoided because that’s just how the plumbing is set up. Needless to say, I don’t buy it.

‘Unequal burden’ is an understatement of epic proportions. Men have nothing to risk in pregnancy except being sent to the grocery at 2am for pickles and ice cream – and that’s those that stay around, which is a far lower number than it should be. On the other side, women can potentially die in childbirth. Expectant mothers are very, very fragile, and need all the protection they can get whether they carry to term or not; and that decision should rest on them.

In theory, of course it’s a good option – if the mother is taken care of. But theory ignores maternal love.

I have no first-hand experience with either abortion or giving a child up for adoption. I haven’t made any guarantees about mental harm caused by one or the other – merely passed along what information I know from others who do have that experience. Do you have any more personal experience with both situations than I, that you can make such guarantees? And remember, such a thing is by no means universal; different people are affected in different ways.

Were the fetus outside the mother and not directly draining her physical resources, I’d fight for their protection just as much as I support the choice of the mother now. However, that’s simply not the case. Until the fetus fulfills those conditions, its rights are entirely subordinate to the mother’s will.

We are on the same side - for the care and protection of women. But what you don’t realize is how demeaning, exploitative and harmful your “choices” for women really and truly are - the abortion industry is a cynical and pragmatic one, and it really does not have our best interests in mind.
If women don’t want to be exploited, then they should stop being exploited. But denying our uniqueness as women as the radical feminist agenda has done has put us all in some very hard places and has caused way more harm than good.

 

[vern_humphrey]

English-for-everybody-but-Vern translation: ‘His argument is juvenile and ignorant and not worth doing anything but laughing at’.

No substitute for rational argument. You simply cannot refute the proposition that secret abortions of the underage do not benefit the mother (since they thrust her right back into the environment in which she was raped) and cover up evidence of the rape.

Now if that argument is “juvenile and ignorant” it should be no trick for a person of your education and IQ to refute it.

 

[Mirdath]

We are on the same side - for the care and protection of women. But what you don’t realize is how demeaning, exploitative and harmful your “choices” for women really and truly are - the abortion industry is a cynical and pragmatic one, and it really does not have our best interests in mind.

I am not making any choices for others. I’m trying to make sure they have all the options open if and when it becomes time to make that choice. If you think the exercise of free will is demeaning and exploitive, I’m sorry.

Granted, most people are in any profession to make money. But doctors, at least good ones, do have your interests at heart, whether the procedure is abortion, pulling a tooth, or brain surgery – if only for the duration you’re under their care.

If women don’t want to be exploited, then they should stop being exploited.

‘You don’t like what other people are doing to you? Stop being done to then!’ It’d be nice if things worked that way, but sadly they don’t.

But denying our uniqueness as women as the radical feminist agenda has done has put us all in some very hard places and has caused way more harm than good.

Even I’ll agree that hyper-radical, man-hating feminism is bizarre, scary, and potentially dangerous. But I’m guessing that what’s ‘radical’ to you is ‘moderate’ to me, and I think those moderate-by-my-standards feminists have done a lot of good
vern humphrey:

Now if that argument is “juvenile and ignorant” it should be no trick for a person of your education and IQ to refute it.

No trick at all, but what I wonder isn’t how difficult it is but whether it’s worth the effort when you’re set against accepting anything I say merely because I hold a position you don’t favor. I think it isn’t.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No trick at all, but what I wonder isn’t how difficult it is but whether it’s worth the effort when you’re set against accepting anything I say merely because I hold a position you don’t favor. I think it isn’t.

How many times have you said this? It would be easier for you to refute the argument – if you could.

 

[Mirdath]

How many times have you said this? It would be easier for you to refute the argument – if you could.

About twice now, and a little laziness is easier than pointless, unrewarded, mocked effort.

 

[Jennifer123]

I am not making any choices for others. I’m trying to make sure they have all the options open if and when it becomes time to make that choice. If you think the exercise of free will is demeaning and exploitive, I’m sorry.

Granted, most people are in any profession to make money. But doctors, at least good ones, do have your interests at heart, whether the procedure is abortion, pulling a tooth, or brain surgery – if only for the duration you’re under their care.

Women aren’t told health risks at abortion clinics. Women aren’t given the opportunity to see their ultrasounds at abortion clinics. Abortion research is supressed, denied and ridiculed. Women aren’t told about adoption options at abortion clinics. It’s laughable to think that women are given all their options by this so-called compassionate industry. Abortion is big cash-money business. Don’t be fooled by the rhetoric.

 

[vern_humphrey]

About twice now, and a little laziness is easier than pointless, unrewarded, mocked effort.

If you can refute it, how would that be pointless, unrewarded mocked effort?

You would show everyone here the brilliance of your logic and your command of the facts. In all future debates you could trot it out and use it.

As it is, the only person who can trot out his victory is me – I am the one who can save this thread and use as a trophy, showing how I challenged the defenders of abortion and they dared not reply.

 

[Mirdath]

Women aren’t told health risks at abortion clinics. Women aren’t given the opportunity to see their ultrasounds at abortion clinics. Abortion research is supressed, denied and ridiculed. Women aren’t told about adoption options at abortion clinics. It’s laughable to think that women are given all their options by this so-called compassionate industry. Abortion is big cash-money business. Don’t be fooled by the rhetoric.

It’s more options than you’d give them. I’m hardly satisfied with the state of medicine in the US myself, but I vastly prefer what we have now to back-alley abortions – which will make an enormous comeback if ever abortion is made illegal.

I’m all for education and support – as long as it’s not trying to push anything. The site you linked earlier is just as blinding as the coldest, most disinterested doctor. It’s not education, it’s propaganda. Educate women about the health risks of abortion – sure! But also tell them about the risks of carrying to term. Show ultrasounds? If they want to see, go right ahead. Tell them about adoption? Please do! But don’t try to force them into anything.

As I said a while back, I do not like abortion. But you aren’t going to be able to stop it by religion or by legislation. Focus on reducing the frequency through objective education and better care for women and you’ll find me right there with you.

 

[Mirdath]

If you can refute it, how would that be pointless, unrewarded mocked effort?

Because no matter what I say, no matter how correct I may be, you won’t accept it. The only way any answer of mine would satisfy you is if God himself reached down from the heavens and wrote MIRDATH’S RIGHT in letters of fire on your wall. And even then I suspect you’d rather believe it of diabolical origin.

You would show everyone here the brilliance of your logic and your command of the facts. In all future debates you could trot it out and use it.

I’m vain, but I’m not that vain. Let my individual arguments stand or fall by themselves; I need no past victories to prove a different point for me. I have no use for trophies.

As it is, the only person who can trot out his victory is me – I am the one who can save this thread and use as a trophy, showing how I challenged the defenders of abortion and they dared not reply.

‘Dared not reply’ is somewhat different from ‘laughed you out of the argument’, Don Quixote

 

[apricot_yogurt]

Pregnancy is not the awful thing you make it out to be, Mirdath. Many women feel fantastic and look fantastic. At 13 weeks I feel great. My child needs me as much now as he/she will after they are born, if I was not to make the effort to feed/clothe/clean/cuddle them they would die.
If someone is small and cannot live without someone else, then they need more protection, not less.

 

[Mirdath]

Pregnancy is not the awful thing you make it out to be, Mirdath. Many women feel fantastic and look fantastic. At 13 weeks I feel great. My child needs me as much now as he/she will after they are born, if I was not to make the effort to feed/clothe/clean/cuddle them they would die.
If someone is small and cannot live without someone else, then they need more protection, not less.

I didn’t say it was all awful! The stance I’m taking in this debate just requires me to focus more on the negatives

I’m glad yours is going well, congratulations!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Because no matter what I say, no matter how correct I may be, you won’t accept it. The only way any answer of mine would satisfy you is if God himself reached down from the heavens and wrote MIRDATH’S RIGHT in letters of fire on your wall. And even then I suspect you’d rather believe it of diabolical origin.

If I could tapdance like that, I’d be trying out for Broadway musicals.

My mother used to say, “Don’t holler til you’re hit.” You’re hollering before anyone even threatens you. You’re full of complaints and excuses – but no substance in regard to the challenge I posted for you.

I’m vain, but I’m not that vain. Let my individual arguments stand or fall by themselves; I need no past victories to prove a different point for me. I have no use for trophies.

By failing to address the points I raised, all your arguments fall. Or they would if they hadn’t already been refuted point by point (like your claim the unborn child is a “parasite.”)

‘Dared not reply’ is somewhat different from ‘laughed you out of the argument’, Don Quixote

So show us the humor here.

Just 'cause you say it, that don’t make it true.

 

[Jennifer123]

Because no matter what I say, no matter how correct I may be, you won’t accept it. The only way any answer of mine would satisfy you is if God himself reached down from the heavens and wrote MIRDATH’S RIGHT in letters of fire on your wall. And even then I suspect you’d rather believe it of diabolical origin.

There are plenty of atheists who believe abortion to be objectionably wrong, you don’t have to be a right-wing hate monger.
But you are right, nothing will let me accept abortion, none of the arguments you have presented (believe me I’ve heard em all) change my mind because I see that in all ways, it is unjust to everyone.

 

[vern_humphrey]

There are plenty of atheists who believe abortion to be objectionably wrong, you don’t have to be a right-wing hate monger.
But you are right, nothing will let me accept abortion, none of the arguments you have presented (believe me I’ve heard em all) change my mind because I see that in all ways, it is unjust to everyone.

My point in this instance, though, was not against abortion per se (although I am solidly pro-life). It was about a particular practice – taking unwed girls to abortionists secretly, without informing their parents, and then concealing the whole thing. The effect of this is:

1. It shelters and protects rapists. Every underage girl who is pregnant is a victim of rape. And none of these rapes are being reported.
2. It hurts the girl – an underage girl who is pregnant has far more problems than the physical fact of her pregnancy. She needs help – but the people who are obliged to help her, her parents, are kept ignorant of her problem.
3. The girl is thrust back into the same environment – raped there once, what are the odds she will be raped again?

This is an issue the pro-abortion crowd dare not debate.

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Midrath
I’m trying to make sure they have all the options open if and when it becomes time to make that choice.

ALL women have a choice.
That choice is whether to engage in sexual congress or not.
IF she doesn’t want to be pregnant, she doesn’t have to be.
She can keep her legs together.
End of the “choice” arguement!

And please don’t drag out that old saw about rape.
It encompasses less than 1/10th of 1% of pregnancies. (Check with your local PP office for the stats)
And STILL is not a reason to destroy life.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Quote:
originally posted by Midrath
I’m trying to make sure they have all the options open if and when it becomes time to make that choice.

ALL women have a choice.
That choice is whether to engage in sexual congress or not.
IF she doesn’t want to be pregnant, she doesn’t have to be.
She can keep her legs together.
End of the “choice” arguement!

And please don’t drag out that old saw about rape.
It encompasses less than 1/10th of 1% of pregnancies. (Check with your local PP office for the stats)
And STILL is not a reason to destroy life.

Actually, an umderage girl may not have a choice. Even if she were not forcibly raped, we must all agree she is not of an age to make an intelligent decision to have sex. She was raped.

And once the school nurse or other official gets their hooks in her, she really doesn’t have a choice about abortion, either – they have caught her at her most vulnerable and will subject her to pressure she cannot resist.

And once she has had the abortion, she has no choice to prosecute her rapist – the evidence has been destroyed.

And, of course, she has no real choice about being raped again – since she has been thrown back into the same environment where she was raped and her rapist is still walking free.

 

[Mirdath]

There are plenty of atheists who believe abortion to be objectionably wrong, you don’t have to be a right-wing hate monger.

As I’ve been saying, it’s an ugly necessity. When it’s no longer necessary I’ll rejoice.
vern humphrey:

This is an issue the pro-abortion crowd dare not debate.

Plenty of them would, even myself on good days; I’m just kinda fed up with you. How about a curveball for your side, then, to balance it out? Say you have a situation like my friend’s I described earlier: either terminate the pregnancy or both are certain to die. She weighed 90 lbs at conception (and is pretty tall); she doesn’t weigh much more now, and both she and the fetus are dying of starvation. She can’t eat enough to support them both. What do you choose? Will you kill the mother by your passivity? Or will you make the best of a bad situation and save her life?

If you can answer that one, I promise I’ll go back and answer yours, just for you

catsrus:

ALL women have a choice.
That choice is whether to engage in sexual congress or not.
IF she doesn’t want to be pregnant, she doesn’t have to be.
She can keep her legs together.
End of the “choice” arguement!

Like I said earlier, you can preach all you want but animal instinct doesn’t care much for homilies. And, like it or not, women are smaller, weaker, and more easily coerced into sex, whether they call it rape or not.

 

[vern_humphrey]

As I’ve been saying, it’s an ugly necessity. When it’s no longer necessary I’ll rejoice.

Please give us a list of situations where abortion is a “necessity.”

 

[Mirdath]

Please give us a list of situations where abortion is a “necessity.”

First and foremost, to save the life of the mother; secondarily, as an individual choice where it is deemed necessary. It’s really kinda like asking for a list of situations in which operating on cancer is a ‘necessity’. The situations are far too various and far too individual. It’s a medical and ethical question, and none of us is qualified to answer it for everyone – and that’s why I prefer to leave the option there.

 

[vern_humphrey]

First and foremost, to save the life of the mother;

Give us an example of case where it is necessary to save the life of the mother. Tell us what percentage of abortions meet that criterion.

secondarily, as an individual choice where it is deemed necessary.

So you define “necessary” as whenever “it is deemed necesssary.”

You do know the meaning of the phrase “circular argument?”

t’s really kinda like asking for a list of situations in which operating on cancer is a ‘necessity’.

How many living human beings are deliberately killed by cance operations?

The situations are far too various and far too individual. It’s a medical and ethical question, and none of us is qualified to answer it for everyone – and that’s why I prefer to leave the option there.

Right – anyone can kill anyone.