The Vatican Condemned Halloween Last Year

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Julianna said:
Putting witches to death, those were the days. Now with some enlightment and education…the cause was bad rye.🤷
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Like I said, the Spaniards figured out pretty early on that most witch hysteria was baloney.

I’m sure that the FBI gets numerous bad tips every day about all sorts of outrageous stuff. It’s really not an ideological question as to how you choose to handle them; it’s more a question of investigative sophistication. You have to realize that x% of that stuff is garbage and should simply be ignored. On the other hand, there will be y% that identify individuals who will present a danger to themselves or others, and you have to follow up on that.
 
Adeodatus said:
Given how this thread is going, it’s easy to miss something! 🙂

I think we’re basically in agreement. Kids are prone to the occult because they’re curious about the world but have fuzzy intellects, so you have to take responsible steps to make sure that they know to avoid it. It’s like the hot stove: they only know to avoid it if they’ve been told about it, or if they’ve been burned. Better to tell them than allow them to be burned.

In the main I see Halloween as a bit of harmless fun. I don’t understand the acrimony in this thread, however. It really isn’t that big of a deal.

As far as the death penalty for actual witchcraft, I should make it clear that historically that has been the province of the state, and the Church had little involvement even in the prosecution of witches until 1484 when Pope Innocent VIII issued Summis desiderantes affectibus which enjoined certain German inquisitors to act directly against outbreaks of witchcraft in several dioceses. In general, though, it has been the Catholic tradition to let the state handle the destruction of witches… the idea of the Catholic Church staging ‘witch hunts’ is largely a myth. In fact, the oft-reviled Spanish Inquisition (which unlike most juridical bodies of the time insisted that the defendant have legal counsel, and that a physician be present during torture so that no permanent harm was done to the subject… remember that it was widely the case that the testimony of peasants was inadmissable unless obtained under torture) tended not to take claims of witchcraft very seriously, and was reluctant to administer a penalty in all but the most egregious circumstances.

If nowadays we had just and upright states, basing their governance on true moral principles, then witches would be seen as enemies of the state as well as of the Church. However I think a moderate view is a good thing to have on this: on the one hand we can agree with Frs. Kramer and Sprenger that to deny the very existence of witches manifestly savors of heresy (the German opinion); but on the other hand I think we can also accept that many accusations or admissions of witchraft are baloney and to be viewed critically (the Spanish opinion).
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You’ll be happy to learn that there ARE still morally upright states which provide the death penalty for witches: Saudi Arabia, Iran and the tribal areas of Pakistan come to mind. Catholics who favor this ideal of justice are more than welcome to relocate there. I’ll even help pay the airfare (so long as it’s one-way). 👍
 
kenofken said:
You’ll be happy to learn that there ARE still morally upright states which provide the death penalty for witches: Saudi Arabia, Iran and the tribal areas of Pakistan come to mind. Catholics who favor this ideal of justice are more than welcome to relocate there. I’ll even help pay the airfare (so long as it’s one-way). 👍
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If they do not have Jesus Christ, they are not morally upright.

I suggest perhaps investing some time in a Logic class at some point? Just because a state which is famously wrong on certain points (like Saudi Arabia) does something right, does not mean that what is right is rendered wrong by association.

Do you believe in having paved roads? They actually have some paved roads in Saudi Arabia. I guess that means you support them in all that they do. The same with ample supplies of electricity and a public sporting arena. Obviously if you’re for any of those things you are one with the imams.

Back on planet Earth, however, let’s use Logic. It makes for a more interesting discussion.
 
Adeodatus said:
Given how this thread is going, it’s easy to miss something! 🙂

I think we’re basically in agreement. Kids are prone to the occult because they’re curious about the world but have fuzzy intellects, so you have to take responsible steps to make sure that they know to avoid it. It’s like the hot stove: they only know to avoid it if they’ve been told about it, or if they’ve been burned. Better to tell them than allow them to be burned.

In the main I see Halloween as a bit of harmless fun. I don’t understand the acrimony in this thread, however. It really isn’t that big of a deal.

As far as the death penalty for actual witchcraft, I should make it clear that historically that has been the province of the state, and the Church had little involvement even in the prosecution of witches until 1484 when Pope Innocent VIII issued Summis desiderantes affectibus which enjoined certain German inquisitors to act directly against outbreaks of witchcraft in several dioceses. In general, though, it has been the Catholic tradition to let the state handle the destruction of witches… the idea of the Catholic Church staging ‘witch hunts’ is largely a myth. In fact, the oft-reviled Spanish Inquisition (which unlike most juridical bodies of the time insisted that the defendant have legal counsel, and that a physician be present during torture so that no permanent harm was done to the subject… remember that it was widely the case that the testimony of peasants was inadmissable unless obtained under torture) tended not to take claims of witchcraft very seriously, and was reluctant to administer a penalty in all but the most egregious circumstances.

If nowadays we had just and upright states, basing their governance on true moral principles, then witches would be seen as enemies of the state as well as of the Church. However I think a moderate view is a good thing to have on this: on the one hand we can agree with Frs. Kramer and Sprenger that to deny the very existence of witches manifestly savors of heresy (the German opinion); but on the other hand I think we can also accept that many accusations or admissions of witchraft are baloney and to be viewed critically (the Spanish opinion).
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Agreed. These kids today that think they are practicing “the craft” are no threat. All they have to go by is books by neo-pagan authors. It’s fantasy really.
 
Halloween has been absolutely condemned by the worlds largest Archdiocese. The Archdiocese of Mexico, led by Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera said in 2007 that Halloween is:

“damaging and against the faith”,

that “Those who celebrate Halloween are worshipping a culture of death that is the product of a mix of pagan customs”

and that “The worst thing is that this celebration has been identified with neo-pagans, Satanism and occult worship.”

See this link seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003984533_mexhalloween31.html?syndication=rss
 
skovaler said:
Halloween has been absolutely condemned by the worlds largest Archdiocese. The Archdiocese of Mexico, led by Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera said in 2007 that Halloween is…
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No Archdiocese (no matter how large) represents the whole of the Church in general. You don’t see all Catholics making devotions to Our Lady of Guadalupe now do you? :rolleyes:
 
:amen:
skovaler said:
Halloween has been absolutely condemned by the worlds largest Archdiocese. The Archdiocese of Mexico, led by Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera said in 2007 that Halloween is:

“damaging and against the faith”,

that “Those who celebrate Halloween are worshipping a culture of death that is the product of a mix of pagan customs”

and that “The worst thing is that this celebration has been identified with neo-pagans, Satanism and occult worship.”

See this link seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003984533_mexhalloween31.html?syndication=rss
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Hats off to the Good Cardinal :tiphat:
 
:thumbsup:THIS IS Psalm 139:7-12 (New International Version)

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”

12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
 
skovaler said:
Halloween has been absolutely condemned by the worlds largest Archdiocese. The Archdiocese of Mexico, led by Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera said in 2007 that Halloween is:

“damaging and against the faith”,

that “Those who celebrate Halloween are worshipping a culture of death that is the product of a mix of pagan customs”

and that “The worst thing is that this celebration has been identified with neo-pagans, Satanism and occult worship.”

See this link seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003984533_mexhalloween31.html?syndication=rss
Click to expand...
Seems like they are more offended at the American nature of the celebration. I’m not convinced all the Mexican practices are strictly “kosher”. This could end up a debate over whose paganism you like better: European or Aztec.
 
colmcille1 said:
…but at least with St Patrick’s Day (which is fully, not “somehow” Christian) there are family parades throughout the country.
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I don’t know where you live, but here in small-town USA, we have family parades for Halloween.

Miz
 
I agree with this idea. There is a fun Polish tradition after Easter, called Lany Poniedzialek - “Wet Monday”, also known as Smigus Dyngus. It involves men splashing women with water - orginally something to do with fertility, I think. On a practical level, it is a really fun day for kids, who will drench each other and everyone else.

Halloween in America is on this order, I think. It’s traditional. It’s fun for kids. It is not religious, and the kid in the Darth Vader costume does not really want to be a Sith Lord when he grows up.
 
I see the cars in your example are driving on the pagan side of the road (left).
 
I’d be interested to see At Trent logically defend his position (for once :rolleyes:) that deriving something from paganism counts you as a wishy-washy follower. That’s like saying celebrating Christmas and not other Catholic holidays (like the Japanese) makes you a cafeteria Catholic.

Yeah well your laser sword will find itself quite matched against my Keyblade. :cool:
 
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