The Vatican II changes in Liturgy

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None of that has anything to do with the fact that praying the Rosary during Mass was in fact promoted by at least two Popes.

Bringing Vatican II into the equation is a smoke screen. An excuse for blatant denial.

I am referring to praying the Rosary during Mass long before Vatican II.
 
I didn’t say it was promoted, now you’re twisting what I wrote

It was allowed and people, not everyone, did in fact pray the Rosary during Mass.

I saw my own grandmother do it.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
So you’re calling me a liar
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No, I’m saying that you continually perpetuate a myth.

Can you not bring it upon yourself to recognize that we are attempting to discuss what you saw in the 50’s ?

You keep stating and implying that anyone that prayed the Rosary during Mass was doing so because of Latin and lack of ability to understand the Mass itself. And all the while flat out refusing to acknowledge that at least two Popes promoted the devotion.

I’m sorry but you are in denial.
 
No, I do believe the the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy pretty much supersedes all prior liturgical law.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I didn’t say it was promoted, now you’re twisting what I wrote
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I’m not twisting anything. I am the one claiming that two popes promoted the devotion. My posts are right there in black and white for everyone on this forum to see.

You are the one that is not reading what I wrote whether it be through anger or whatever other reason.
 
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Excuse me?
I don’t care what you buy, or don’t buy.

I’m telling the truth.

What makes you think that people haven’t tried all the avenues?

What makes you think that a bishop, while still caring for his people, can’t make the decision that he’s better off having priests like this only in a small parish where a lot of the people ‘like him’, instead of stepping in, having the priest either defy him or play the martyr card, having the people yell, scream, threaten to leave, all for a dozen or so older people who aren’t rich, important, etc? Bishops do the best they can, but bishops don’t necessarily want to face off against ‘popular’’ priests who have political ties and a narrative of being ‘the right kind of priest’, and to get slapped, as you see so many do lately, if they seem to be coming down like rigid beasts trying to ‘force’ the people like they’re portraying the priests/bishop over in the State of Washington about that group of people who are screaming over the ‘rigidity’ of the Nigerian priest who was put in to try to help bring the parish back in line with authentic teaching.

It would have been nice for you to have said, “That’s a tough situation, I’ll pray for you” instead of implying that the situation only exists because somehow people like me ‘didn’t do enough’, and so the whole thing is ‘unbelievable.’
 
No, I’m saying that you continually perpetuate a myth.
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That’s the definition of telling an untruth, i.e. a lie

I also didn’t say anyone who prayed the Rosary did so because of Latin, Those are your words and not what I said, so let me clear it up for you.

I didn’t say anyone who prayed the Rosary did so because of Latin

I did say that many who did pray the Rosary, did so because they could not follow the Mass in Latin, and I stand by that statement. I know the people in my parish who did and many other Catholics who grew up before Vatican II, saw the same thing.

We’re not all liars !

St Pope John XXIII didn’t cal for the Mass to be reformed for nothing. There was a problem in the Church and he followed the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and called for Vatican II.
 
The argument is that SC was pastoral in nature. Or do you believe it (Latin, Gregorian chant, Pope organ, etc) was binding?

Mass doctrine was stated in Session 22 of the Council of Trent. By definition it does not change.
 
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No argument there from me.

But that has nothing to do with anything I’ve posted in this thread regarding why before Vatican II, some people prayed the Rosary during Mass.

The context is quite clear.
 
But Jim, how do you KNOW this ‘many’ did so because they could not follow the Mass in Latin? Seriously, how do you know? You can’t know that. I’m not calling you a liar, I’m sure you sincerely believe what you’re saying, but you are indeed perpetuating a myth that many people could not follow a Latin Mass and had to do other things, like the rosary, instead.

This just is not true, no matter how firmly and sincerely you believe it.
 
But Jim, how do you KNOW this ‘many’ did so because they could not follow the Mass in Latin?
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Because they said it was the reason.

Sure, not a scientific survey, but again, Vatican II was called forth along with reform of the Mass, because the people were not actively engaged in the Mass.
 
stpurl said:
What makes you think that a bishop, while still caring for his people, can’t make the decision that he’s better off having priests like this only in a small parish where a lot of the people ‘like him’, instead of stepping in, having the priest either defy him or play the martyr card, having the people yell, scream, threaten to leave, all for a dozen or so older people who aren’t rich, important, etc?
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I do not believe that any Bishop would take such a laissez faire attitude to liturgical law.
It is incomprehensible to me that this has been allowed to contine for the reasons you state.
 
Exactly who were they, Jim? How many people in your parish church during a given year told you they absolutely could not follow that Latin Mass. . .and why on earth would you extrapolate that infinitesimal number in one person’s ‘experience’ to equal, "many people in the 1950s did not understand Latin blah blah?

Why is one person’s anecdote supposed to be the experience of millions of people?
 
You;re now asking me for information that you know I can not give, so I give up.

You’re right

No one was praying the Rosary at Mass to avoid Latin and those that did, were fully engaged in the Mass, Other Catholics like myself, made it all up, it’s a myth.

Vatican II was wrong.

Why be Catholic, today eh ?
 
According to the way the Mass was at his time, he had to provide justification.

But again, why did St Pope John XIII call for the reform in the fist place ?
 
Look at the situation in Washington state. It’s the same thing. Bishops are human and priests are human. You get a priest in his mid 60s who has been doing this in the same parish (we don’t change at the 6 year point in this diocese) for more than 10 years, and you get a bishop in new in the last couple of years, and maybe the bishop feels, well, in a few years Father will retire, these people are used to him. . . look, I’m not the bishop, I’m just a poor old woman who’s been having to deal with a horrible situation for years, I have cataracts and can’t drive, I do the best I can, I offer it up. Don’t you think I don’t want to scream sometimes “PLEASE Bishop, please do something!” But I’m not the bishop! I have to either believe that he’s doing what he can, and it will work out in the end even if I’m no longer here to see it, or I’d go crazy.
 
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