The Vatican II changes in Liturgy

[OraLabora]

At our abbey, confession is 1/2 hour before Mass. Our confessor frequently runs into “overtime” and comes into Mass well after it has begun. He doesn’t concelebrate when that happens, but manages to hear all confessions.

 

[ProVobis]

Eventually things changed and Catholics began singing, as the hymns became more familiar,

Still have a ways to go to match the Anglicans for example but I was surprised a few years ago many Catholics still remember the Tantum Ergo quite well.

 

[Phemie]

I remember being in grade 6 when the change to the vernacular happened, for me that vernacular was French.

Every lunchtime the sister who taught grade 7 took those of us who wanted to and we went over the responses we would be expected to make. I still remember the little yellow cardboard folders with the responses that were found in all the pews that Sunday. That would have been either First Sunday of Advent 1964 or the beginning of Lent 1965. There were still lots of changes between that one and the Mass that became the 1975 Missal.

 

[Phemie]

I had a missal even when I was in just the 4th grade. In fact, about 12 years ago while cleaning out my parents house, I found it. My niece asked if she could have it, being she was interested in languages.

The only “missal” I remember having was the little white one I got when I made my first Communion in 1960. That said, I could follow Mass fairly easily with it since it was all in pictures with only a short explanation of what was going on. I just compared the pictures of the priest in the missal with what was going on in the sanctuary to know where we were.

From what I remember after the Mass changed, the most awkward part was getting Catholics to sing. The parish had a woman who taught us the hymns before the Mass started. We were all given mimeograph copies of the hymns for that Sunday. Hardly anyone sang as they were use to letting the choir that existed, do the singing.

Eventually things changed and Catholics began singing, as the hymns became more familiar, especially with the Monks of the Weston Priory, then of course the St Louis Jesuits.

In my home town parish they have never sung. No photocopied lyrics, no hymnals, and glares if you sing because you happen to have learned the hymn they’re singing at another parish. I can remember my mom hissing at me, “The choir doesn’t need your help!” Imagine how hard it was to hiss that!

Catholics still sit in the back pews however. My wife and myself sit the 2nd row from the front, as three woman sit in the very front row. We pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet before Mass starts. Meanwhile behind us, there are no less than five empty pews before the first row of parishioners. Mind you, this is a very small church which when full, seats about 170 people.

I told one pastor that if I ever design a church it will only have one row of pews, the back row.

Going to Mass on Saturday afternoon is depressing for that reason. You could have about 4 center rows filled but you have 25 people scattered throughout a church a bit bigger than yours.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Tantum Ergo, one of my favorites sung by the Trappist Monks at Benediction

 

[Peeps]

I love the pipe organ, and everyone who expects to hear pipe organ at Mass ought to bring his wallet to Church and open it up, because organists don’t grow on trees and educating them is expensive.

$260.00/month for one lesson a week with an organist who is a FAGO with the AGO, and has his doctoral degree in theory and composition, and who has played the organ in churches for over 50 years.

I’m a pianist who wanted to learn to play the organ just in case Holy Mother Church decided to throw out the pianos and guitars. I took five years of organ lessons at the rates I listed in the above paragraph. My teacher was delightful, and we are still friends, even though I stopped taking lessons a few years ago, due to the expense and the lack of time to practice.

I can play hymns fairly well, and I have a basic understanding of the registration and what’s appropriate. I can play the simple Bach and Buxtehude pieces; the French composers are beyond me–I just don’t have the “feeling” for French organ music (my teacher’s specialty and great love!).

The people at my parish think I’m great!

I think that it was immensely helpful to know how to play the piano before taking up organ. My teacher told me that if he has a child student, he will start the child out on piano before taking him/her to the organ.

I’m sure that in different parts of the country, lesson prices vary, and some people will pick it up faster than me (and others more slowly). One of my friends who has a disability that prevents him from getting a job spends several hours a day practicing, and he’s really good at the organ! Sadly, he was let go from his church because they are going to all piano and guitars (Protestant church).

I agree with goout–if you want to hear the organ, put some money into it! Offer to pay for lessons for a child who plays piano, or for an adult who doesn’t have the money to pay for lessons.

 

[Phemie]

goout:

I love the pipe organ, and everyone who expects to hear pipe organ at Mass ought to bring his wallet to Church and open it up, because organists don’t grow on trees and educating them is expensive.

$260.00/month for one lesson a week with an organist who is a FAGO with the AGO, and has his doctoral degree in theory and composition, and who has played the organ in churches for over 50 years.

I’m a pianist who wanted to learn to play the organ just in case Holy Mother Church decided to throw out the pianos and guitars. I took five years of organ lessons at the rates I listed in the above paragraph. My teacher was delightful, and we are still friends, even though I stopped taking lessons a few years ago, due to the expense and the lack of time to practice.

I can play hymns fairly well, and I have a basic understanding of the registration and what’s appropriate. I can play the simple Bach and Buxtehude pieces; the French composers are beyond me–I just don’t have the “feeling” for French organ music (my teacher’s specialty and great love!).

The people at my parish think I’m great!

I think that it was immensely helpful to know how to play the piano before taking up organ. My teacher told me that if he has a child student, he will start the child out on piano before taking him/her to the organ.

I’m sure that in different parts of the country, lesson prices vary, and some people will pick it up faster than me (and others more slowly). One of my friends who has a disability that prevents him from getting a job spends several hours a day practicing, and he’s really good at the organ! Sadly, he was let go from his church because they are going to all piano and guitars (Protestant church).

I agree with goout–if you want to hear the organ, put some money into it! Offer to pay for lessons for a child who plays piano, or for an adult who doesn’t have the money to pay for lessons.

I’m 66 and of all the music students I’ve known over the years, 2 took organ, one because the family had an electric organ at home, the other decided to do a music degree in organ. He doesn’t play much anymore, since few, if any, of the churches around where he lives use the organ and there’s not much call for an organist anywhere else in the area. He’s purchased a grand piano and is now concentrating on piano.

 

[po18guy]

The spirit of division is alive and well!

 

[GiftofMercy]

$260.00/month for one lesson a week with an organist who is a FAGO with the AGO, and has his doctoral degree in theory and composition, and who has played the organ in churches for over 50 years.

Ours donate their time and expertise in pursuit of succession and ensuring the Cathedral will always have people who can play the organ.

To be able to play and have access to and practice on a Pipe Organ is pretty unique. It is an instrument provided by the Church who maintains it to an excellent condition. It is for anyone who would like to learn and play it.

To keep this on topic some music enacts the rite in the Mass

 

[Margaret_Ann]

And pray: “MY LORD AND MY GOD!” softly to gain a partial indulgence.

And at the elevation of the chalice:

“Be mindful, O Lord, of Thy creature, whom Thou hast redeemed by Thy Precious Blood.”

Also partial indulgence.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

What is your cathedral?

 

[twf]

Holy Rosary, Vancouver. The altar rail is also used… at all four daily Masses and all seven Sunday Masses.

 

[Scott84]

Try taking an organ to an outside rally, especially a tracker pipe organ, which was the style commonly in the cathedrals in Europe and the US

Nowadays you can do organ music on a synthesizer. God bless technology.

 

[CradleRC58]

Others prayed the Rosary, which isn’t what the Mass is for.

That the laity were often seen praying the Rosary during Mass was due to the inability to follow the Mass has been stated so frequently that one would believe it’s true. But that is not the case.

Who among us would have the nerve to tap Saint John Paul II on the shoulder as he prayed the rosary during Masses he was too ill to pray, and tell him he should know better ? And those times he was seen doing so were during OF Masses.

The laity praying the rosary during Mass has never been discouraged by any Pope that I can find. In fact, at least two promoted it.

Here is a good article explaining why the practice was, and remains, acceptable.

The 'Eucharistic' Rosary?

I t is perhaps no surprise and only natural that basic knowledge of the Church's traditional liturgical rites and pious devotions, let a...

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

From a 15th century prayer book…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Peeps]

Ours donate their time and expertise in pursuit of succession and ensuring the Cathedral will always have people who can play the organ.

To be able to play and have access to and practice on a Pipe Organ is pretty unique. It is an instrument provided by the Church who maintains it to an excellent condition. It is for anyone who would like to learn and play it.

You must be kidding. I must be misunderstanding you. Surely you are not saying that your organists give away free lessons?

Unless your musicians are independently wealthy, how do they make a living?!

No, I don’t believe this. The various musicians’ guilds are very strong, and they do not appreciate when musicians undermine their efforts to make a living from their trade. That musician will, in all likelihood, be blacklisted and unable to find any other work in their area.

I’m not a union supporter, but I think it’s important to support fellow professionals and I believe that people should be PAID for their work. And playing the organ in church IS WORK! It is not a spiritual exercise. I don’t accept a salary for playing at my parish, but I do expect to be paid when I sub at other parishes in my city. And I most certainly accept payment for playing in Protestant churches or in secular settings.

Priests are paid for their work–not necessarily in a salary, but in goods and services. Why should an organist be expected to give away the skills that cost him/her tens of thousands of dollars to acquire and maintain?

Uh UH! Nope.

And maintaining a pipe organ is also an expensive task. Very expensive. I disagree that it is for anyone who would like to learn and play it. I think that a parish has every right to vet those who ask permission to practice on the parish pipe organ (or electric organ, or even piano, for that matter) and make sure that they possess the maturity to correctly use the instrument. OUR parish organ has been damaged several time by unknown people who have done such things as erased all the settings or changed the settings (very unpleasant for all if the organist is not aware of the loss until they actually sit down to play!).

I’m going to assume that I misunderstand what you are telling us.

 

[GiftofMercy]

I think this discussion would be off topic

 

[GiftofMercy]

I think this discussion would be off topic

 

[Peeps]

Really? Off topic?

You say that people give away their organ music to the Cathedral? And you (or others) wonder why there are not enough organists! Would YOU spend tens of thousands of dollars to train for a profession that didn’t pay any wages? Would you as a parent spend tens of thousands of dollars so that your children could learn to play the pipe organ knowing that they will not receive any wages from so doing?

 

[CilladeRoma]

I agree @Peeps, this is part of this topic of VII and changes to the Mass.

My diocese, about 10 years ago, renovated our Cathedral. We had a new pipe organ made specifically for the space. It cost well over $1.5 million dollars. We have the builder come in once a year ( a huge expense, BTW) to make sure it is tuned and everything is working properly. No one and I mean NO ONE, other than the music director, the few organists who play for us and the builder are allowed to even touch it. The keyboard was built with a special locking cover to prevent anyone from just coming and banging on keys.
I live in a city with a world-renowned school of music with an organ performance major. We pay a small stipend to the students who share their time and talent to play at Mass. They also have time to come and play on our organ and give recitals a few times year, and even the students are far and few between.

When it comes to music, the Catholic Church really needs to stop relying on amateurs if it wants professional quality music on an instrument that is not that common anymore.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I grew up in the 1950’s and saw people praying the Rosary during Mass

To deny this is a tap dance around reality in order to attack the Vatican II changes.