The Very Early Eucharist---Jesus not present in the Bread and Wine?

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Psalm45:9, you have the very dangerous hobby of judging others on things that you don’t understand.

As do you.

YAQUBOS:

Those who will read the thread in its place will clearly see this.

Ditto.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Two Christians are telling you the SAME thing in a different way and in a DIFFERENT CONTEXT, and you are understanding different things.

So did the Church Fathers.

YAQUBOS:

Wake up.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Ok. It seems it is better to put the “list” of the Spirit to the blind who can’t see it in the thread you are talking about. Go here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21087&page=3

Because if we don’t give time to explain things one by one, you will not cease asking this question again and again…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Thank you YAQBUOS. May God continue to Bless you on your pilgrimage.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Thank you YAQBUOS. May God continue to Bless you on your pilgrimage.

I didn’t do anything. It’s all the Grace of the Lord.

So thank the Lord.

So the Scripture ( the Word of God ), says clearly that we must eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood so that we may have Life.

This is for this thread.

As for the skeptics who don’t want to believe God and His Word: in the other thread.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Ignatius]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Ok. It seems it is better to put the “list” of the Spirit to the blind who can’t see it in the thread you are talking about. Go here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21087&page=3

Because if we don’t give time to explain things one by one, you will not cease asking this question again and again…

Peace be with you also.

This linked thread has nothing to do with the question. You are evading the issue. Speak plainly and give a real answer; that is if you actually have an answer. Otherwise we’ll have to presume that you can’t actually answer.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Ignatius:

Peace be with you also.

This linked thread has nothing to do with the question. You are evading the issue. Speak plainly and give a real answer; that is if you actually have an answer. Otherwise we’ll have to presume that you can’t actually answer.

It has nothing to do with the question about the Scripture??

Whatever… You can presume whatever you want. I don’t think I have to rewrite here again all what I wrote in that thread. This is not the place where we must talk about the matters of DIVINE CANON.

When people don’t want to accept something, they can presume many things… Maybe Pilate did the same thing after asking the Lord about the Truth…

The Lord bless you.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[jphilapy]

Psalm45:9:

Until the church declares that all killing is a sin or vice-versa, then there are going to be changes of opinion on it. However if the chruch infalliably declares all killing is a sin, which I doubt, then people are not bound to believe executions, war, and self-defense without just cause is wrong.

So you are saying the catholic church can change what scripture says?

Jeff

 

[mercygate]

jphilapy:

So you are saying the catholic church can change what scripture says?

Jeff

Sure. Changing Scripture. D’ya think Psalm45:9 might have been using a rhetorical device?

Wait! What was I thinking? I forgot that the Catholic Church – sorry, I mean the Whore of Babylon – totally corrupted the original manuscripts of the Bible in order to persecute the true church, which survived underground until the Reformation brought it out into the light.

 

[jphilapy]

mercygate:

Have you read the Epistles of St. Paul?

Any idea that the New Testament Church was a perfect society of charity and virtue ended with one verse in the Acts of the Apostles.

Being a “perfect society” has nothing to do with exemplifying the life of Christ to the same standard as the early christians. As you say, they had problems. But I did not ask if the catholic church was problem free. I asked if they exemplify the standards of living as a whole just as the early believers did. In otherwords does the world say about the majority of believers, wether protestant or catholic, ‘See how they truly love one another’ just as they said it about the early church?

Jeff

 

[jphilapy]

mercygate:

Sure. Changing Scripture. D’ya think Psalm45:9 might have been using a rhetorical device?

Wait! What was I thinking? I forgot that the Catholic Church – sorry, I mean the Whore of Babylon – totally corrupted the original manuscripts of the Bible in order to persecute the true church, which survived underground until the Reformation brought it out into the light.

You lost me with your comment about rhetorical device. What I am getting at is if the second century believers taught it was scripture that taught war is wrong for christians, then how can the catholic church change that?

BTW what I meant by change scripture is, you are saying the catholic church can change any scriptural teaching that it wants.

Next if the catholic church is the whore then that makes the protestant church her daughters doesn’t it.

Jeff

 

[Ignatius]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Whatever… You can presume whatever you want. . . . .
When people don’t want to accept something, they can presume many things…

Peace be upon you.

Which is exactly why Jesus set up His Church and gave it all Authority. That is why we have the Church, so that we will not
lean unto our own understanding, but accept Christs’ leadership through the Church which He made the Pillar and Foundation of all Truth.

May the Lord guide you to His true Church.

 

[Kurt_G]

Hello Jeff, Michael, others…
Wow, go for a long weekend, come back and this thread just keeps on going and going and going…!

Both of you caught me guilty of “subjective” interpretation in excess, I might admit. I will try to avoid it in the future.

Please allow some responses to your quotes:

jphilapy:

Now did he explain to his apostles what he meant by “eat of my flesh”? They may have put two and two together, and remembered what he said from his statement in chapter 4 when he said “My meat is to do the will of the Father”…
Jeff

It would seem more likely to me that the Apostles put two and two together on the night of the Last Supper.

jphilapy:

*Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. *
Jeff

In this verse, I would pair up “the flesh” with Paul’s use in Galations, for example. For me, it would mean “earthly, human reasoning and desires”.

“The flesh” does not mean “Jesus’ flesh”. We cannot say that Jesus’ flesh profiteth nothing. It is the means of redemption for everyone.

So, let’s not equate “the flesh” of John 6:63 with “Jesus’ flesh” of John 6:51. Anyone who tries to do that is grasping.

Also, Jesus tells us that the words He speaks are spirit and life. What words? I think He means the very words he just spoke, telling us that we should eat His flesh!
(At least that what Scripture says He said…)
He is telling us that, if we use our human reasoning we are not going to believe what He is telling us. We must have faith, believe what He tells us, and reach for it spiritually. We should also all be reminded that nowhere in Scripture is “Spirit” demoted to mean “symbolic”. (You didn’t suggest it, but others might)

jphilapy:
Because if you interpret it literally in one part then you have to take it to it’s completetion. Did Jesus mean we were to eat his body as it stood there?

Peace,
JeffJesus was speaking of the future in verse 51, not the present. He says it right there…"…the bread that I WILL give is my Flesh for the life of the world".

And yes, we know He was referring to His coming crucifixion. But the Catholic view has yet a fuller meaning. That’s our point…

All the wonderful Scriptures you used in your posts are certainly valuable for all of us. I just see no intellectual obligation to “make a choice”. We can keep all the wonderful verses you mention, we can keep all of Scripture, and we can keep a literal John 6, and a literal Eucharist!

And finally, let’s look at this verse one more time:
John 6:51 “…if any man eat this bread, he shall live forever, and the bread that I will give is my FLESH, for the life of the world.”

What could Jesus possibly mean by “bread” in this verse? Gee, I just don’t see the argument here…
Jesus tells us in that very verse…the bread is His Flesh! Those are His words, not ours.
At least in this verse, He doesn’t leave it open to discussion, so why are we all still talking about it?
I just don’t know…
I do feel that most all of us here share a burning desire to learn about, and love more, this Jesus Christ whom we have come to believe in. We may not see eye to eye on more than 82.7% of it, but ultimately I think we are all interested in the same thing: the “true” Truth.

God Bless Us All!

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

So you are saying the catholic church can change what scripture says?

Jeff

You mean my words weren’t clear, you need someone to tell you? I said I doubt it because both scripture and traditon show that executions, wars, and self-defense is the only time that killing is justified? My words weren’t clear?

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

So you are saying the catholic church can change what scripture says?

Jeff

You mean my words weren’t clear, you need someone to tell you what they meant? I said I doubt it because both scripture and traditon show that executions, wars, and self-defense with just cause is the only time that killing is justified. My words weren’t clear?

No the Catholic Church cannot change what the scriptures say and it has not. That is why I said I doubt it, because it would go against scripture and tradition.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:

I didn’t do anything. It’s all the Grace of the Lord.

So thank the Lord.

Ditto!

YAQUBOS:

So the Scripture ( the Word of God ), says clearly that we must eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood so that we may have Life.

YAQUBOS:

It does not say anywhere in the Bible that it is a sin to destroy the World Trade Center… So are those terrorists blameless?

“Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13)

YAQUBOS:

But it doesn’t say: “Thou shalt not kill those who are in the World Trade Center”

 

[jphilapy]

Psalm45:9:

You mean my words weren’t clear, you need someone to tell you what they meant?

You really like to squeeze everyone who is not a catholic into the protestant box don’t you? First of all I am only a protestant because I disagree with some of what catholicism teaches and agree with some of what protestant teaches. That’s not entirely by choice either. Hence the reason I search the early christian writers as well as scripture. But I donot hold to some protestant tradition. However you put me into that box when you say things like the above. In all fairness your understanding of where many non-catholics are coming from today is about as deep as their understanding of where catholics are coming from. In short you are doing the same things.

However you probably didn’t know that there are some non-catholics who believe that christians are saved only if they produce the fruit of righteousness, the result of walking by faith in step with the Holy Spirit. You probably also didn’t realize that some non-catholics take a more thought out view of understanding scripture than the typical protestant postion.

I am totally aware that there is a need for interpreting scripture and a need for help in understanding scripture. But why is it that this topic is always treated from one side here? The interpreting and understanding of scripture is purely a intellectual exercise when you deal with it on a linguistic level. However the understanding of the Gospel is purely a spirtual understanding which no man can convey to anyone. You can explain the linguistic side of it till you are blue in the face, you can interpret it till there are no words left to use, but if the person does not have the Spirit of Christ then he cannot understand the message because he is blind. However only the Spirit can reveal to you what the meaning of the message is. So you cannot rule out one side in favor of the other.

I just don’t believe the pope and the college of bishops are the only ones who have that ability, or have the Spirit.

Now with that said, you will get much further if you stop grouping us all together and start talking to us as individuals who may or may not come from the same background. I do believe that is fair.

Thanks for your blunderstanding

Jeff

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

You really like to squeeze everyone who is not a catholic into the protestant box don’t you? First of all I am only a protestant because I disagree with some of what catholicism teaches and agree with some of what protestant teaches. That’s not entirely by choice either. Hence the reason I search the early christian writers as well as scripture. But I donot hold to some protestant tradition. However you put me into that box when you say things like the above. In all fairness your understanding of where many non-catholics are coming from today is about as deep as their understanding of where catholics are coming from. In short you are doing the same things.

However you probably didn’t know that there are some non-catholics who believe that christians are saved only if they produce the fruit of righteousness, the result of walking by faith in step with the Holy Spirit. You probably also didn’t realize that some non-catholics take a more thought out view of understanding scripture than the typical protestant postion.

I am totally aware that there is a need for interpreting scripture and a need for help in understanding scripture. But why is it that this topic is always treated from one side here? The interpreting and understanding of scripture is purely a intellectual exercise when you deal with it on a linguistic level. However the understanding of the Gospel is purely a spirtual understanding which no man can convey to anyone. You can explain the linguistic side of it till you are blue in the face, you can interpret it till there are no words left to use, but if the person does not have the Spirit of Christ then he cannot understand the message because he is blind. However only the Spirit can reveal to you what the meaning of the message is. So you cannot rule out one side in favor of the other.

I just don’t believe the pope and the college of bishops are the only ones who have that ability, or have the Spirit.

Now with that said, you will get much further if you stop grouping us all together and start talking to us as individuals who may or may not come from the same background. I do believe that is fair.

Thanks for your blunderstanding

Jeff

My apologies.

 

[jphilapy]

Psalm45:9:

My apologies.

Thank you. I appreaciate that!

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Ignatius:

Peace be upon you.

Which is exactly why Jesus set up His Church and gave it all Authority. That is why we have the Church, so that we will not
lean unto our own understanding, but accept Christs’ leadership through the Church which He made the Pillar and Foundation of all Truth.

May the Lord guide you to His true Church.

Maybe I had to give the precise numbers of the posts where I wrote by the Grace of the Lord about the DIVINE CANON.

It’s in the posts # 242 to 247 in the following thread or page:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21087&page=3

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Luke1_48]

Yo! I thought this wuz supposed to be about the Eucharist, what happened?