The Very Early Eucharist---Jesus not present in the Bread and Wine?

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

spokeword and yaqubos are not the same person.

You mean to tell me that two Bible believing Christians are interpreting the Bible differently?

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

Now it appears you have deleted your post again Yes this is live posting!!

Sorry, I was having technical problems.

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

Anyway I see a difference of interpretration among catholics as well. Why is that?

Because people refuse to listen to Orthodox teachings.

 

[jphilapy]

Psalm45:9:

Because people refuse to listen to Orthodox teachings.

It seems kind of moot then that non-catholics have different interpretations. Basically different intrepretations among protestants or any group is not indication that the group is flawed. If it were then that would be a show of how flawed catholicism is. Even the writers in the early church differed amongst themselves on how they interpreted passages of scriptures. And modern day catholics interpret scripture different than early believers as I have demonstrated in a previous post on this thread.

Also you say they have different interpretations because they won’t listen to orthodox teachings, can’t it possibly be that they have a lot to learn and so don’t know all the teachings?

One thing that was noted among earlier believers was the fact that many were not able to explain in words the teachings of the church, but they lived them by their lives.

Jeff

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

It seems kind of moot then that non-catholics have different interpretations. Basically different intrepretations among protestants or any group is not indication that the group is flawed. If it were then that would be a show of how flawed catholicism is.

What we have here is another common misunderstanding of the Catholic Church. In order for a dogma to be proclaimed it must be agreed on by the majority of the bishops. At some point the majority declared abortion is a sin against the natural law. In light of what the Lord said in the 18th chapter of Matthew, whatever they bind will be bound in heaven.
jphilipay:

Even the writers in the early church differed amongst themselves on how they interpreted passages of scriptures. And modern day catholics interpret scripture different than early believers as I have demonstrated in a previous post on this thread.

Yes, but see the answer above. Not all of the early bishops agreed on the trinity and some fell into heresy. It was the orthodox tradition of the Apostles that formally declared the doctrine of the Trinity at the Council of Nicea.
jphilipay:

Also you say they have different interpretations because they won’t listen to orthodox teachings, can’t it possibly be that they have a lot to learn and so don’t know all the teachings?

Then their ignorance may save them. If they really want to be Catholic then they’ll read the Catechism and the History of the Church and its coucils.
jphilipay:

One thing that was noted among earlier believers was the fact that many were not able to explain in words the teachings of the church, but they lived them by their lives.

This I’m not familiar with, can you please provide me with some cited material? I do not doubt that what you say is true though. But I’m sure the people knew that the Eucharist is what St. Ignatius wrote.

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

It seems kind of moot then that non-catholics have different interpretations. Basically different intrepretations among protestants or any group is not indication that the group is flawed. If it were then that would be a show of how flawed catholicism is.

What we have here is another common misunderstanding of the Catholic Church. In order for a dogma to be proclaimed it must be agreed on by the majority of the bishops. At some point the majority declared abortion is a sin against the natural law. In light of what the Lord said in the 18th chapter of Matthew, whatever they bind will be bound in heaven.
jphilipay:

Even the writers in the early church differed amongst themselves on how they interpreted passages of scriptures. And modern day catholics interpret scripture different than early believers as I have demonstrated in a previous post on this thread.

Yes, but see the answer above. Not all of the early bishops agreed on the trinity and some fell into heresy. It was the orthodox tradition of the Apostles that formally declared the doctrine of the Trinity at the Council of Nicea.
jphilipay:

Also you say they have different interpretations because they won’t listen to orthodox teachings, can’t it possibly be that they have a lot to learn and so don’t know all the teachings?

Then their ignorance may be their allay. If they really want to be Catholic then they’ll read the Catechism and the History of the Church and its coucils.
jphilipay:

One thing that was noted among earlier believers was the fact that many were not able to explain in words the teachings of the church, but they lived them by their lives.

This I’m not familiar with, can you please provide me with some cited material? I do not doubt that what you say is true though. But I’m sure the people knew that the Eucharist is what St. Ignatius wrote.

 

[jphilapy]

Psalm45:9:

This I’m not familiar with, can you please provide me with some cited material? I do not doubt that what you say is true though. But I’m sure the people knew that the Eucharist is what St. Ignatius wrote.

haha you gonna make me look it up huh! I will and will post here.

Jeff

 

[RedDeathsMask]

Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 18:15-18)

“If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)

'Ignatius of Antioch

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (*Letter to the Romans *7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (*Letter to the Smyrnaeans *6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).’

[Igantius, Bishop of Antioch]

catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

“Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God.” (Acts 20:28)

“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you REJECTS ME, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

Amen.

You took the words right out of my mouth, I didn’t even know half of those bible passages!

 

[jphilapy]

Psalm45:9:

This I’m not familiar with, can you please provide me with some cited material? I do not doubt that what you say is true though. But I’m sure the people knew that the Eucharist is what St. Ignatius wrote.

On the contrary, they never cease with evil intent to search out skilfully the secrets of their art, and are ever bent on working some ill, making the art of words and not the exhibition of deeds their business and profession. But among us you will find uneducated persons, and artisans, and old women, who, if they are unable in words to prove the benefit of our doctrine, yet by their deeds exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not strike again; when robbed, they do not go to law; they give to those that ask of them, and love their neighbours as themselves.

Quote From Chapter XI - ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-46.htm

Now to the opposite effect is another statement:

It is not, then, that we hold the same opinions as others, but that all speak in imitation of ours. Among us these things can be heard and learned from persons who do not even know the forms of the letters, who are uneducated and barbarous in speech, though wise and believing in mind; some, indeed, even maimed and deprived of eyesight; so that you may understand that these things are not the effect of human wisdom, but are uttered by the power of God.

Quote From Chapter LX - ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm

Even today I personally meet catholics and protestants alike who live Godly lives but have a very simple understanding of christianity.

Jeff

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

Even today I personally meet catholics and protestants alike who live Godly lives but have a very simple understanding of christianity.

Thank you very much! Come to think of it, I’ve met non-Catholics who didn’t know that Christ is the incarnation and the second person of the Holy Trinity. The material you provided demonstrates the necessity of the Church Hierarchy in maintaining the faith.

 

[jphilapy]

Psalm45:9:

Thank you very much! Come to think of it, I’ve met non-Catholics who didn’t know that Christ is the incarnation and the second person of the Holy Trinity. The material you provided demonstrates the necessity of the Church Hierarchy in maintaining the faith.

So do you think Catholics are more united today then christians were in the 1st century?

And I am not sure what a hirearchy has to do with folks who don’t believe Christ is the incarnation. The Catholic hirearchy hasn’t changed the fact that there are folks for the last 2000 years who didn’t believe in it. And on another note many protestants have ardently been defending and teaching the incarnation since their own inception.

Jeff

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

So do you think Catholics are more united today then christians were in the 1st century?

On matter of dogmas and doctrines I would have to say yes.

Justin Martyr

“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (*First Apology *66 [A.D. 151]).

catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

St. Justin Martyr was not too long after St. Ignatius.
jphilipay:

And I am not sure what a hirearchy has to do with folks who don’t believe Christ is the incarnation. The Catholic hirearchy hasn’t changed the fact that there are folks for the last 2000 years who didn’t believe in it.

On the contrary, the Church hirearchy maintained the doctrine of the Trinity from heretics like Arius, whose movement led to other heresies.
jphilipay:

And on another note many protestants have ardently been defending and teaching the incarnation since their own inception.

Using the same scripture that Arius used.*

 

[jphilapy]

Psalm45:9:

On matter of dogmas and doctrines I would have to say yes.

What about exemplifying the life of Christ? Do you think the catholic church meets the standard of life demonstration that early believers held? I am not talking about a mental assent to doctrinal standards here. I am referring to the life of the believers period. In the second century there are extensive testimonies of the apologists describing the believers, the apologists describing what the unsaved said about the church and even a few testimonies of from the unsaved of what the unsaved said in describing the church. For example Tertullian says:

But it is mainly the deeds of a love so noble that lead many to put a brand upon us. See, they say, how they love one59* another*, for themselves are animated by mutual hatred; how they are ready even to die for one another, for they themselves will sooner put to death. And they are wroth with us, too, because we call each other brethren; for no other reason, as I think, than because among themselves names of consanguinity are assumed in mere pretence of affection. But we are your brethren as well, by the law of I our common mother nature, though you are hardly men, because brothers so unkind.

For me it appears that the last thing the protestant or catholic churches are known for is their love for one another.

Here is something, maybe you have some knowledge of: The believers in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, did not permit any believer to be in a position of killing wether it be as a judge, military commander or soldier. However after constantine became emperor, the whole entire army of constantine consisted of professing christians. Even constantine was in a position that was not permitted by early believers. Sounds like a change of standards.

Jeff

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

I did provide the spiritual list. Please provide the spiritual list from scripture

In its place.

You provided a human list. I prefer the “list” of the Holy Spirit.
Psalm45:9:

Well, there was another thread, but you gave me circular answers.

In that other thread, you insisted on believing humans more than God, so YOU gave me circular anwers all the time. I asked you what is the Word of God, and you didn’t stop talking about words of men!!!

If the Lord wills, I want to open a thread about that.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Sorry to give you a heart attack, let me explain myself.

Read this over the intercession of the Saints in Heaven:

All quotes are from a closed thread.

When some one said that the Bible does not say that the Jews did not pray to Abraham, I said:

YAQUBOS answered:

I responded:

YAQBUOS replied:

So now I have concluded that since it does not say anywhere, “thou shalt not kill the unborn.” Then that means the Bible does not condemn abortion, but Apostolic Tradition does. Take it up with him.

The closed thread that I am quoting can be found here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=18301&page=1&pp=100

Psalm45:9, you have the very dangerous hobby of judging others on things that you don’t understand.

Those who will read the thread in its place will clearly see this.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

You mean to tell me that two Bible believing Christians are interpreting the Bible differently?

Two Christians are telling you the SAME thing in a different way and in a DIFFERENT CONTEXT, and you are understanding different things.

Wake up.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[mercygate]

jphilapy:

Do you think the catholic church meets the standard of life demonstration that early believers held? . . . For me it appears that the last thing the protestant or catholic churches are known for is their love for one another.

Have you read the Epistles of St. Paul?

Any idea that the New Testament Church was a perfect society of charity and virtue ended with one verse in the Acts of the Apostles.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

I did provide the spiritual list. Please provide the spiritual list from scripture

Well, there was another thread, but you gave me circular answers.

Ok. It seems it is better to put the “list” of the Spirit to the blind who can’t see it in the thread you are talking about. Go here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21087&page=3

Because if we don’t give time to explain things one by one, you will not cease asking this question again and again…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

jphilapy:

What about exemplifying the life of Christ? Do you think the catholic church meets the standard of life demonstration that early believers held? I am not talking about a mental assent to doctrinal standards here. I am referring to the life of the believers period. In the second century there are extensive testimonies of the apologists describing the believers, the apologists describing what the unsaved said about the church and even a few testimonies of from the unsaved of what the unsaved said in describing the church. For example Tertullian says:

But it is mainly the deeds of a love so noble that lead many to put a brand upon us. See, they say, how they love one59* another*, for themselves are animated by mutual hatred; how they are ready even to die for one another, for they themselves will sooner put to death. And they are wroth with us, too, because we call each other brethren; for no other reason, as I think, than because among themselves names of consanguinity are assumed in mere pretence of affection. But we are your brethren as well, by the law of I our common mother nature, though you are hardly men, because brothers so unkind.

For me it appears that the last thing the protestant or catholic churches are known for is their love for one another.

Here is something, maybe you have some knowledge of: The believers in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, did not permit any believer to be in a position of killing wether it be as a judge, military commander or soldier. However after constantine became emperor, the whole entire army of constantine consisted of professing christians. Even constantine was in a position that was not permitted by early believers. Sounds like a change of standards.

Jeff

Until the church declares that all killing is a sin or vice-versa, then there are going to be changes of opinion on it. However if the chruch infalliably declares all killing is a sin, which I doubt, then people are not bound to believe executions, war, and self-defense without just cause is wrong.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:

In its place.

You provided a human list. I prefer the “list” of the Holy Spirit.

Me too, that is the one I provided.

YAQUBOS:

In that other thread, you insisted on believing humans more than God, so YOU gave me circular anwers all the time. I asked you what is the Word of God, and you didn’t stop talking about words of men!!!

I believe Jesus preached his word to men and gave them the authority to do the same to others. The oral word preceded the written word. I believe what the humans preach is the word of God, for the Holy Spirit within the ecclesial body determined what is scripture.

YAQUBOS:

If the Lord wills, I want to open a thread about that.

That other thread is still in the scripture forum. Have a nice day!