The Virgin Mary

[jmcrae]

Is the Catholic permitted to believe that Mary committed personal sin?

No.

If not, why not?

Because if a person who was immaculately conceived commits a personal sin, this is a disaster on the same level as when Adam and Eve (who were also immaculately conceived) committed their sin.

The whole world became changed for the worse by their sin - death entered into the world by their sin - this was the beginning of earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, landslides, meat-eating animals, diseases, old age, etc. Not only death, but pain and sadness also entered into the world - incurable diseases, children born crippled, blind, deaf, brain damage, addictions, etc.

If Mary had sinned, who can say what might have happened? Certainly, we cannot imagine anything worse than the worst thing that already exists, but if Mary had sinned, then the door would have been opened up for that even-worse thing to occur.

 

[HailMary]

this is a disaster on the same level as when Adam and Eve (who were also immaculately conceived) committed their sin.

I would not venture to say Adam and Eve were immaculetily concieved since they were created.

 

[jmcrae]

I would not venture to say Adam and Eve were immaculetily concieved since they were created.

The point being that they were in the state of grace from the moment that they came into existence, just like Mary was.

 

[Ginger2]

Comparing Mary to Jesus in this manner is senseless.

The Bible clearly states Jesus was without sin.(Hbr 4:15) It does not say that about Mary. I don’t believe global disaster is listed in the CC as the reason Catholics must believe Mary remained sinless.

Concerning the immaculate conception…Mary did not have to be born without sin to be the mother of Jesus. original sin is past from the father. The mother is only a carrier.

 

[rlg94086]

Comparing Mary to Jesus in this manner is senseless.

The Bible clearly states Jesus was without sin.(Hbr 4:15) It does not say that about Mary. I don’t believe global disaster is listed in the CC as the reason Catholics must believe Mary remained sinless.

Concerning the immaculate conception…Mary did not have to be born without sin to be the mother of Jesus. original sin is past from the father. The mother is only a carrier.

I could be wrong, because this is not my area of expertise, but I don’t think original sin is passed by only the father. Besides, is that really the reason the Church teaches that Mary was without original sin…so, she wouldn’t pass it to Jesus through birth?

Can someone help me out here? It is not a logical argument to me. Why? Because if the only way for Jesus to be born without original sin is if Mary didn’t have original sin, then how was Mary born without original sin?

 

[Ginger2]

I believe the church teaches that Mary was born without original sin by the Grace of God.

But she did not have to be. The Catecism states:

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER ONE
I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER

III. ORIGINAL SIN

The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

THis agrees with Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (singular) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men (mankind), for that all have sinned:…
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

It is not a logical argument to me. Why? Because if the only way for Jesus to be born without original sin is if Mary didn’t have original sin, then how was Mary born without original sin?

No, this isn’t the reason. The reason is that Jesus, in obedience to the Fifth Commandment (Honour thy father and thy mother) gave to His mother the best possible gift that He could give to her, which was the gift of sinlessness.

He did this not because it was necessary, but because it was most fitting.

 

[rlg94086]

I believe the church teaches that Mary was born without original sin by the Grace of God.

But she did not have to be. The Catecism states:

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER ONE
I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER

III. ORIGINAL SIN

The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

THis agrees with Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (singular) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men (mankind), for that all have sinned:…
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Ginger2,

I think you are misreading the Catechism. It doesn’t say that original sin is passed through the father. It came into the world through Adam and passed to all men (mankind), but as the Catechism says (bolded above) the transmission is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. It isn’t a genetic trait passed by the father.

As you correctly stated, Mary was born without original sin by the Grace of God. Jesus was born without original sin, because He was…well…God.

Pax,
Robert

 

[VociMike]

Concerning the immaculate conception…Mary did not have to be born without sin to be the mother of Jesus. original sin is past from the father. The mother is only a carrier.

Do you believe, if humans could be cloned, that a cloned human would therefore not have original sin and all the weaknesses that entails?

I sure don’t.

 

[VociMike]

No, this isn’t the reason. The reason is that Jesus, in obedience to the Fifth Commandment (Honour thy father and thy mother) gave to His mother the best possible gift that He could give to her, which was the gift of sinlessness.

He did this not because it was necessary, but because it was most fitting.

And God the Father also gave his only begotten son the best gift he could have, a perfect and perfectly loving mother.

 

[VociMike]

The Bible clearly states Jesus was without sin.(Hbr 4:15) It does not say that about Mary.

Ginger2, what personal sin has an aborted baby committed?

 

[Little_Mary]

If one does not believe that Mary is without sin, one has no concept of the divinity of God.

 

[jmcrae]

Ginger2, what personal sin has an aborted baby committed?

Since most people, including Catholics, would say that an aborted baby goes to Heaven anyway, I’m not sure how this advances the argument.

The Scriptures tell us that we are conceived in sin, and this is because we lack a relationship with God at the moment of conception - we are not adopted into God’s family until we are baptized into His Church.

I have a personal theory that Mary was conceived because of her relationship with God, and this is how it is that she could not have been conceived with Original Sin, since Original Sin is nothing other than the lack of a relationship with God.

 

[VociMike]

Since most people, including Catholics, would say that an aborted baby goes to Heaven anyway, I’m not sure how this advances the argument.

Ginger2 has repeated the “all have sinned” argument against Mary’s sinlessness. So I want to know, if “all have sinned”, what sin an aborted baby has committed.

The Scriptures tell us that we are conceived in sin, and this is because we lack a relationship with God at the moment of conception - we are not adopted into God’s family until we are baptized into His Church.

Yes, but the scriptures that are used against Mary specifically say “all have sinned”. That is personal sin, not original sin. So if that is the basis of Ginger2’s argument, I want her to tell me what sin an aborted baby has committed, because I can’t conceive of one.

 

[rlg94086]

If one does not believe that Mary is without sin, one has no concept of the divinity of God.

Hi Little Mary,

I think that may be going a little too far. I would agree with you if you said “does not believe that Mary could be born without sin and remain sinless…” Because to believe it is impossible, would certainly deny the divinity of God for Whom all things are possible. However, I think it is possible to have a concept of the divinity of God, without believing as we do in the sinlessness of our Holy Mother.

Pax,
Robert

 

[rlg94086]

Ginger2 has repeated the “all have sinned” argument against Mary’s sinlessness. So I want to know, if “all have sinned”, what sin an aborted baby has committed.

Yes, but the scriptures that are used against Mary specifically say “all have sinned”. That is personal sin, not original sin. So if that is the basis of Ginger2’s argument, I want her to tell me what sin an aborted baby has committed, because** I can’t conceive** of one**.**

Well, of course you can’t conceive…you are a man…Biology 101.

 

[VociMike]

Well, of course you can’t conceive…you are a man…Biology 101.

Hey, if women can be priests, I can conceive. Fair is fair.

 

[rlg94086]

“From now on, I want you all to call me Loretta.”

Hey, if women can be priests, I can conceive. Fair is fair.

 

[jmcrae]

Ginger2 has repeated the “all have sinned” argument against Mary’s sinlessness. So I want to know, if “all have sinned”, what sin an aborted baby has committed.

Yes, but the scriptures that are used against Mary specifically say “all have sinned”. That is personal sin, not original sin. So if that is the basis of Ginger2’s argument, I want her to tell me what sin an aborted baby has committed, because I can’t conceive of one.

I must have skimmed over that part of the thread. Sorry!!

 

[Ginger2]

Your aborted baby question is not relative to this thread.

However, original sin is not a specific act committed by the individual. It is our fallen state of imperfection. None of us are living in the perfect Garden of Eden. All of us suffer living in a state of separation from God. Adam and Eve basically told God to back off. God did and that is why we have hurricanes and floods and death from all sorts of causes. God allows bad things to happen because we told Him we don’t need Him - that we can do a better job taking care of ourselves.

Now those who love are in the same boat as those who hate God. But only for awhile…

What does the Bible say about babies? Jesus loves the little children. But even babies need Jesus. Jesus died for everyone including babies so they also have been given the gift of eternal life.

Gen 18:25 …Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?