The Virginity of Mary - Protestant positions

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You address Mary’s womb as common and ordinary after holding the King of Kings.
I would not call any miracle that is human life as common and ordinary or her womb or any womb.

You are Monday morning quarterbacking. Christ was not King of Kings yet. He indeed was quite ordinary as an infant and child , quite incarnate. He indeed is said to have “grown” in all ways.

Again I would not touch Mary either if a Shekhinah glory manifested itself mystically as like the ark, with people dying from just touching it during gestation. ( again yes to a mystical but unseen conception)
 
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@mcq72
I probable used the wrong word. Yes God permits sin but He never takes on sin. He bore our sins but was completely without sin! Mary was conceived without sin!
 
I’m not sure you realize that maternal and fetal blood ‘cross’ the placenta.
Yes it can but not sure always, but yes in negative situations. Dont think anything was " negative" with incarnation and gestation period.
Christian world for 1500 plus years for Mary to be conceived without sin.
Not true, eccept by formulated, developed tradition. But yes, it is what tradition says now.

Scripture does not explicitly teach it. Not sure anyone cites apostoles oral teaching either.
I’m curious that nobody has yet given me an answer to the "Zeus’ factor.
I see your point. Yet you say our idea of other siblings originated 1500 years later, well beyond Greco Roman culture.

One could also say they had plenty of female goddesses and that they were dualistic and made much of virgins etc…

So such influences could cut both ways.

No, the idea of siblings I think is due strictly in understanding Jewish culture and tradition regarding marriage and children, and the reading of scripture itself.
 
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I probable used the wrong word. Yes God permits sin but He never takes on sin. He bore our sins but was completely without sin! Mary was conceived without sin!
Yes we agree on His purity from sin. We agree on Christ being sinless. Maybe both agree that his mission was to be touched by sin at the cross. Just as surely as a penitent sinner would lay his sinful hand on the unblemished lamb just as the priest sacrificed/ slew the animal at the altar. So Christ took on, even became sin on the cross.
Mary was conceived without sin!
So a sinless Mary was conceived and gestated in a sinful mother Anne? Why then couldn’t a sinless Jesus be conceived and gestate in a sinful Mary?
 
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just like all those Greek and Roman matrons did after the Greek and Roman gods committed adultery with them, it’s all good.
It is not a Catholic teaching that God had sexual relations with Mary, as in Greco Roman mythology.

I disagree with those who say the Holy Spirit was her spouse exclusively, just as I disagree with those who say their spouse is Christ exclusively to say that one can not be espoused to God and man/ women. Like is most married Christendom adulterers because they are also the Bride of Christ?

You can dedicate your life exclusively to God and not marry. But I wouldn’t say you can’t be espoused to God thru marriage.

A lot of dualism going on here( as in jeromes/ ambrose’s day)…like sex is bad, virginity is good, incarnation good ,regular human birth bad " common" and a great gulf between flesh and spirituality.
 
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Furthermore if the brethren were cousins, even apparently close for they were seen together often , why did not Jesus give Mary’s care to them ? Are you denying any natural law besides any Jewish custom, for kinfolk taking care of their widows. John had no blood relation to Mary.
I don’t know why Jesus did not give Mary’s care to relatives. I am sorry your question is convoluted and I don’t understand it or what you are asking I might deny??? I only know that Jesus took care of His mother and made sure that she would continue to be taken care of.
 
r plea only makes sense if Jesus was not fully man, but he was fully man and fully God ( who is a spirit). If Jesus was only fully God, then indeed Joseph should treat Mary like the holy of holies.
Well, I was puzzled because you said this. But to me it doesn’t make sense. Either Jesus is fully God, or he isn’t. And if he is, to use your own words, “then indeed Joseph should treat Mary like the holy of holies” - divinity veiled by flesh or not.

I’m not picking on you, just genuinely interested in this 😉
 
Jesus was always God. He was always King of Kings. He was anything but ordinary. Human fully human yes BUT God fully God. You treat the fact that Mary’s womb held God as not being sacred but an ordinary event. He wasn’t the King of King yet! God Is King of Kings from all eternity. What does it mean to be King of Kings? It means that God is supreme there is no higher authority. God is who dwelt in Mary for nine months. God who was carried by the new ark. The Ark that could not be touched. Joseph would have known that Mary was dedicated to God. Joseph was told that the pregnancy was of God. He would never have even thought of approaching Mary.
 
So a sinless Mary was conceived and gestated in a sinful mother Anne? Why then couldn’t a sinless Jesus be conceived and gestate in a sinful Mary?
There is no reason. It is fitting however for Mary to be a pure vessel for Our Lord Our God to be carried in.
 
Well, I was puzzled because you said this. But to me it doesn’t make sense. Either Jesus is fully God, or he isn’t. And if he is, to use your own words, “then indeed Joseph should treat Mary like the holy of holies” - divinity veiled by flesh or not.
“But,” he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.

When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD…Exodus 33,34

And what was the transfiguration? Was it a partial unveiling of the glory, the essence of Jesus as God ? Was His Spirit transfigured or His human flesh?

It does make a difference how God reveals Himself…it does make a difference on His approachability…He incarnated to propitiate to be totally approachable. His glory was veiled in his flesh.

I am just saying by faith Mary and Joseph and Elizabeth and a few others saw the gestation and birth of the Jesus as the Christ child. There were no mystical or physical signs of His divine glory yet after the conception. ( the only other sign was John in Elizabeth’s womb moving upon Mary’s arrival).Mary did not “radiate” with the Lord in her. Joseph’s hand did not wither when he touched her child carrying belly etc… I do not believe Jesus just came out miraculously leaving her lower parts untouched or intact. In my opinion and that of early fathers was of a normal birth, with water and blood, and normal purification rites following. Certainly no Shekhinah glory stuff to say to Joseph stay away even after the “until” of the birth.

Jesus looked “ordinary” as a baby and child. ( key word " looked"). I personally believe that made it easier for Joseph and Mary to pursue other children in faith and accordance to Jewish dictates, even Godly dictates…i mean circumcision of the male was a sign, even that the marriage bed and subsequent children were His…so no child is normal or just ordinary in Jewish understanding.
 
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There is no reason. It is fitting however for Mary to be a pure vessel for Our Lord Our God to be carried in.
Yes, thank you. Understand.

I find it fitting that her purity stemmed from covenant graces, as our purity does also.

I find it more fitting that He forsook all surroundings of glory and heavenly purity to save fallen man in a fallen earth.

Mary still needed the infilling of the Holy Ghost after Calvary, just like the apostles. That is not say she was not filled during her conception and pregnancy. ( OT empowerings even fillings were temporary).
 
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You treat the fact that Mary’s womb held God as not being sacred but an ordinary event.
Is that like me saying you treat the creation of other human beings as not sacred? Of course you dont, just as I don’t say Mary’s womb was not either.( Her womb was sacred, the most sacred, during her pregnancy)
The Ark that could not be touched.
Correct because God’s chose to have His presence there, His Shekhinah glory there.
Just as God chose incarnation, to put His presence/glory in a man Jesus, who was in Mary for only nine months. After the birth the God departed the womb but obviously remained in the Ark Jesus. The womb was untouchable until the birth.
He was always King of Kings
Yes and no. Every knee did not bow and every tongue did not confess Him as such a Lord and King at His birth and childhood. He came as the Lamb of God, and that after 30 years of mostly normal living, leaving Mary pondering all those years, but His second coming shall be as King of all kings.
 
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Wannano:
I am willing to admit I find his arguments here rather unconvincing. I am willing to bet that Pharoah believed Moses when he realized he was drowning.

“SHe was found to be with child before they came together” does not indicate me that they never ever did come together or that they indeed did after the child was born.

Maybe I am naive, but I can’t quite figure out what difference it makes anyway.
I don’t think you’re naive. I just think that outside of the “magisterial” reformers and Anglicanism , many non-Catholic traditions simply have not accepted such beliefs. And I believe the later traditions have had an influence on Lutherans and Reformed on the matter, at least here in America.

Luther here expresses the historic teaching of the Church Catholic, going back to Jerome and before. I see no reason to disagree.
Luther being a Catholic priest undoubtedly carried over many periferial concepts that are not basic to God’s plan of Salvation. True, there may be no reason to disagree other than it appears Catholicism is elevating the importance of Mary now more than ever.

While there may be no reason to disagree, what reason is there to agree if it does not appear logical and is not basic to knowing Christ?
 
Okay.

But this has absolutely no bearing on the fact that Jesus was both fully man and fully God and that Mary and Joseph knew it (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:20-22). He was not just a “natural, fleshly child”.

The point I’m trying to make here is that, as you said yourself, if Mary was pregnant with God, then indeed Joseph would have treated her like the holy of holies.
Well, she was. The fact that he was also fully human, and made approachable, does not change that. Mary gave birth to God incarnate, and Mary and Joseph both knew that.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but it sounds as if, in order to deny Mary a special status in God’s design, and the fact that this special status expressed itself in her virginity, you are downplaying Christ’s divine nature (as if it was somehow toned down by his humanity). That would be quite an heterodox thing to do.
 
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But this has absolutely no bearing on the fact that Jesus was both fully man and fully God and that Mary and Joseph knew it (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:20-22). He was not just a “natural, fleshly child”.
My take is that you and I do not ponder such things as Mary and Joseph pondered them. Christology and it’s mysteries were finally fully understood at the formation of the church. Key word “fully”. Mary and Joseph definitely knew of conception by Holy Ghost and of Messiah and son of God…not sure they fully understood full divinity , and that of the second person of the Trinity, creator of all things etc…they more understood His full humanity…do you think the newborn looked differently, acted differently, didn’t cry when hungry or need diaper changing etc etc…no one is saying He was just a natural fleshly child but please tell me what manifestations of His divinity are told us of His first few years, the time when Mary and Joseph would normally consider another child?
and the fact that this special status(for Mary) expressed itself in her virginity,
Pretty sure her “special status”, her highly favored status, her full grace status was was much more than never having had sex, for many Jewish maidens would then also have qualified…such a thought maybe remnant of dualism that found favor in the church a few centuries into church history ( marriage and sex a lesser spiritual favor)…even the Pauline Corinthians began dumping their spouses to be more “spiritual”.

Her favor was more of an obedient and faith filled spirit ( which kept her pure before marriage and gestation)…fulfilling the scriptures…there are no explicit scriptures for Jesus to be an only child, or for Mary and Joseph not to consumate the marriage, have other children etc…she was not known in her village as a virgin…the scriptures only speak of the appearance of a normal household.
you are downplaying Christ’s divine nature
Dont think so…only downplaying unneeded mysticism with Mary and Joseph thereafter , as if where Christ was not fully man also…

Many use same logic to defend sanctity of life in utero…that personhood and essence begin at conception…we don’t pick and choose essence and value by location or size…so if her womb was off limits because Jesus was there, then why wasn’t Jesus his crib off limits or the ground He walked on or the home He lived in etc.?

You have not answered how Moses could be struck dead by seeing Him on the mountain top, the second person of Trinity , and yet same divinity did not kill thousands who not only saw Him but touched Him.
 
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The point I’m trying to make here is that, as you said yourself, if Mary was pregnant with God, then indeed Joseph would have treated her like the holy of holies.
Well, she was
I agree…all agree on this…we loose each other at the “until”.

The holy of holies was so due to divine presence as it pleased Him. Are you saying His divine presence remained in the womb after He left it?
 
Jesus took our sin so that we could be forgiven. Not sure I agree that he became sin.

As far as Mary being born of a sinful mother and father and Jesus had a sinless mother and father, God can do anything he wants. He decided to draw the line where He decided. Mary was conceived without sin so that Jesus had a sinless mother.
Hail Mary full of grace before Jesus was conceived.
 
But ‘until’ does not imply an action follows.
Micah, the wife of David, remained childless until her death.

Did she have kids after she died? no.

Jesus will reign until all His enemies are under His feet.
Will He then STOP reigning? No.

Matthew’s gospel was targeted not to Gentiles or 21st century literalists, but to the contemporary Jewish people.

The passage 'knew her not until" the birth is specifically couched in these terms so that all Jewish people listening knew that Jesus was not the Son of Joseph. (even though Jesus had a specific legal standing as the putative son of Joseph).

And let me tell you, there were a lot of people who knew Jesus and His family, many of whom would have been alive and well in AD 50 or so. You mean to tell me that there is absolutely no whisper of, “Yeah, we knew Mary’s “Oldest” was special, but her other kids, wow did they go wrong” or "Of course James and Joses never measured up to “perfect Jesus’, they were always complaining to us and our kids about the special treatment. Like he was god or something”.
Not.One.Word.

Not one word ever about that “James, Joses, Jesus’ sisters’.
They didn’t come forth to care for Mary.
They didn’t come forth (could you imagine how compelling their testimony would be if they were ‘for’ Jesus? His own family? Or, conversely, how eagerly the Pharisees and Romans would have looked for 'negative testimony?” “We have the words of Jesus’ own brothers and sisters that he was always a nutcase. He was no god” etc.)

Nope, for centuries and centuries we not only have written and oral words about Mary’s perpetual virginity, but people read the gospels and never once–not ONCE!- until the arrogant "look at me I’m literate’ disaffected “I’ll interpret for MYSELF” legends in their own minds start to say, “EGAD! This passage implies that Mary was not a virgin ‘after’ Jesus was born! EGAD! These passages speak of Jesus’ brothers! EGAD! All those centuries ‘the Church’ lied! EGAD!” (like over 1600 years various priests, bishops, princes, nuns, etc. weren’t reading the same gospel passages, but having the sense to say, "Well, of COURSE ‘until’ doesn’t imply that something ‘has to change’, look at other scripture passages, look at the context. Don’t cherrypick.’ “Gosh, Father, don’t you worry that people might someday look at this passage and NOT think about the context? That they might actually think that until implies a change?” “Well, of course some people might be fools, but we’ll just pray they’ll have the sense God gave little green apples and if they can read this passage, that they have the intellectual HONESTY to consider context.”
 
Luke 1:28 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Unfortunately, most Protestants don’t attach deep spiritual import to the phrase “HAIL, FULL OF GRACE” in Luke 1:28 phrased in the DRA. Unfortunately, the New Revised Standard Catholic Edition later rephrased this as “Greetings, favored one,” which seems to lose the significance of the wide spiritual chasm between fallen Eve and full of grace, Mary.

“HAIL” means that the Angel is giving his special salutation of RANK to this young virgin. “HAIL” is a salute to superiors, as when Roman soldiers shouted “Hail, Caesar!” “HAIL” is certainly not “howdy,” and the more respectful “Greeting” (as between equals or colleagues) seen in NRSCE misses the mark of veneration displayed by the angel, Gabriel, toward Mary, which is better phrased in the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.

“FULL OF GRACE” has special import, because no human since the fall of Adam and Eve, through sin, had been “FULL OF GRACE.” From this special understanding, the Church developed the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (of Mary). When Gabriel addresses her, he recognizes her unique virtuous condition of already being free from original sin.
 
Jesus took our sin so that we could be forgiven. Not sure I agree that he became sin.
he was not made sinner , but was made sin 2 Cor 5:21
he was made a curse for us…Gal 3:13

“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” Rom 8:3
 
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