The way of salvation, and assurance thereof

[Bookcat]

Thank you.

So you agree that everyone who dies with The Holy Spirit is absolutely 100% guaranteed to go to Heaven - no matter what, regardless of denomination affiliation or sacramental participation?

Sort of like asking if someone is absolutely 100% guaranteed to be dead if they have indeed been beheaded and killed. The fact that they are indeed dead means that they are dead.

Again - if they IN FACT have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them …if they are in a state of grace …of true life …and they die …then by definition they are headed for heaven. If one leaves this life “in Life” then one is in life.

 

[Bookcat]

regardless of denomination affiliation or sacramental participation?

As to how it *ought *to be …well that is a different question.

Ordinarily it is hearing the gospel …faith…repentance and baptism into Christ and the Church.

As Peter put in the beginning of Acts to the question of the crowd -what are we to do brothers?

He said to repent and be *baptized *and they would receive the Holy Spirit……

God though can work outside of the normal ways he has established.

And it is a different question as to if Sam is *absolutely * infalliblly sure he is headed for heaven 5 hours before he meets that man with the gun.

 

[dcana]

Say a person comes to believe in their heart that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, that He died for our sins, rose again, and that He is coming back to judge the living and the dead, to reward the righteous and punish the wicked. Upon believing this, God fills them with The Holy Spirit. By the grace of God, and by walking according to The Holy Spirit, they become more holy everyday for the rest of their life. They die in this state. They die believing in the gospel in their heart and with The Holy Spirit living inside them.

Can a Roman Catholic affirm that this person, regardless of any denominational affiliation or sacramental participation, will absolutely go to Heaven, with complete and total assurance and a 100% guarantee of their salvation?

You mean, the person thinks God filled them with the Holy Spirit, walked according to the Holy Spirit, and died with the Holy Spirit living inside them.

Since he was not baptized, he was not, in fact, buried with Christ in His Death that he might rise with Him in His Resurrection. He is at enmity with God since he is still in the state of original sin. All of his sins remain unforgiven. They have not become children of the Father through baptism, by which we become a member of God’s household, the Church, and at which the Holy Trinity comes to us and abides with us. As St. Peter says, “Baptism now saves you.”

So they are deceived.

But doesn’t Scripture say, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life?” It does. But doesn’t Jesus also say in that same chapter of John, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God?” He does. Does He not also say, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day?”

You see, Scripture has a lot to say about Salvation. I could multiply verses.

Having said that, they may be invincibly ignorant of the necessity of baptism, which God knows, and God alone is the judge of souls.

Objectively speaking, far from having some “assurance of salvation” at death they would go to hell, in the same state of enmity with God as when they were born.

 

[Bookcat]

You mean, the person thinks God filled them with the Holy Spirit, walked according to the Holy Spirit, and died with the Holy Spirit living inside them.

.

No.

The person gave a *particular story. *It said nothing as to what the person “thought” but dealt with what was a fact in that persons case …what the reality is.

 

[Bookcat]

Since he was not baptized, he was not, in fact, buried with Christ in His Death that he might rise with Him in His Resurrection. He is at enmity with God since he is still in the state of original sin. All of his sins remain unforgiven…

So they are deceived.

No again in the story they* did *have the Holy Spirit. So while they were not yet baptized they had the Holy Spirit.

While ordinarily a person is to be baptized…God can work outside that ordinary way. And in this story as given- God did.

at death they would go to hell, in the same state of enmity with God as when they were born.

And again - not the case. In the persons story as given - the person* in fact has the Holy Spirit within them dwelling when they die* (that is the story given - a fact of the story)…so they are headed for heaven.

 

[dcana]

Can a Roman Catholic affirm that this person, regardless of any denominational affiliation or sacramental participation, will absolutely go to Heaven, with complete and total assurance and a 100% guarantee of their salvation?

The Sacraments are God’s means of giving us Eternal Life and increasing His Life, the life of Grace, within us.

They were given to us by Jesus Christ. They are His Eternal Plan for us to receive the infinite benefits of His Passion, Death, and Resurrection.

Who are you to say we don’t need them?

 

[Bookcat]

The Sacraments are God’s means of giving us Eternal Life and increasing His Life, the life of Grace, within us.

They are given to us by Jesus Christ.

Who are you to say we don’t need them?

Where did I say that?

 

[Nicene]

I am not even sure how to respond to you. Obviously, this discussion has nothing to do with the Eucharist. I am not talking about that. And John, in 1 John 5, says absolutely nothing about the Eucharist either. What he does say is…

“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God … (and) overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?.. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself … And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Actually it does, and this is what John is talking about, as I stated, for him “eternal life” isn’t about you you but Jesus as stated in context.

830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307** In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life**, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

The Eucharist is that sacramental life, along with baptism and reconciliation.

Jesus is the eternal one, as God, always was is and shall be, we do not fit that category, and why he says he will raise them on the last day, those who have his eternal life. His eternal life since the assention is body blood soul and divinity unless you believe he only rose spiritually into heaven.

That above scripture you quoted isn’t even talking about a “heavenly homeland” it is talking about having Christ in you. Read is with an eye towards Christ instead of self and it becomes abundantly clear.

Peace and God bless
Nicene

 

[dcana]

My question was not directed at you but at TDBlovedbyJC.

Jesus Christ and His Church teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. It is the beginning of life in God. So why is this “story” even being discussed when it does not correspond to reality?

Come on, we all know that TD is a Protestant who believes in “me and Jesus” alone, “faith alone”, “I don’t need to belong to any church or participate in any of its ‘rituals’ to be saved”, etc. If he isn’t then he is describing such a one. These people need to be brought to salvation according to the Lord’s designs, in His Church. If they are truly invincibly ignorant, then they need to be illumined by the Light of Christ that they no longer dwell in darkness and the shadow of death.

 

[Bookcat]

My question was not directed at you but at TDBlovedbyJC…

(yes I saw that later and deleted that post…)

Jesus Christ and His Church teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. It is the beginning of life in God. So why is this “story” even being discussed when it does not correspond to reality?

.

Because that IS the story given in the question - and that is what I answered mostly to (see above).

God can work outside the Sacraments - and God can begin things prior to the Sacrament of Baptism. As in the case of Cornelius in Acts.

Or even outside the Sacraments he has given us. God wills that one be baptized but God can work outside that too - for example in the case of person who does not know of the reality of baptism.

 

[dcana]

TDBlovedbyJC, if I may ask, are you describing yourself, someone you know, or no one in particular?

Thank you

 

[Bookcat]

If they are truly invincibly ignorant, then they need to be illumined by the Light of Christ that they no longer dwell in darkness and the shadow of death.

They could *already *be so illuminated and no longer walking in that shadow …(the person in this story - was -that was a given fact of the story)…

• but it would yes be good for them to hear more …be illumined more…and come to know more of what Jesus has given us and come into full communion etc etc.

 

[dcana]

As you pointed out, when Peter, on the day of Pentecost, in what amounts to the very first homily after the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles, was asked by the “Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven”, “what shall we do?”, Peter answered them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

He did not say, “Well, God has given us the ordinary way of baptism for salvation, so you can be baptized if you want but it really isn’t necessary and if you think [NB: **think] you have the Holy Spirit then never mind since God can work outside of the sacraments sometimes. So, yeah.”

 

[Bookcat]

As you pointed out, when Peter, on the day of Pentecost, in what amounts to the very first homily after the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles, was asked by the “Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven”, “what shall we do?”, Peter answered them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

He did not say, "Well, God has given us the ordinary way of baptism for salvation, so you can be baptized if you want but it really isn’t necessary and if you think [NB: **think

] you have the Holy Spirit then never mind since God can work outside of the sacraments sometimes. So, yeah."

No of course not.

But that does not mean that the Holy Spirit cannot come outside the Sacrament of Baptism …outside that ordinary way given.

And in the “given facts of the story” he did.

Of course one is to proclaim Christ - his death and resurrection and true life in him by grace via faith and baptism…

even though it is possible for Jesus to work in other ways.

But that was not the persons question. He gave a particular story so I responded to that particular story. To the facts as given. Though I too added some later…

 

[Nicene]

(yes I saw that later and deleted that post…)

Because that IS the story given in the question - and that is what I answered mostly to (see above).

God can work outside the Sacraments - and God can begin things prior to the Sacrament of Baptism. As in the case of Cornelius in Acts.

Or even outside the Sacraments he has given us. God wills that one be baptized but God can work outside that too - for example in the case of person who does not know of the reality of baptism.

This is correct. In fact it is the first movement of grace and responding to it, Baptism of desire. Though the normative means of salvation is baptism, and the first thing cornelius does and his household is be baptized.

But basically the gist of the thread, being candid, is not only about OSAS and me and Jesus alone but essentially relying on a loophole instead of following the will of God. Or put simply whats the least I need to get to heaven and no more. Which frankly defeats the purpose of being given the Holy Spirit, that is, to do the will of God.

However where I see a bigger problem is judging oneself, instead of allowing God to be the judge. From a biblical viewpoint it is putting yourself in the place of God

1 Pet 2:19 For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering unjustly.
20 For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God’s approval.
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

In the above Christ is our example that we are to follow, and what does he do on the cross:

Lk 23: 46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Peter tells us this about his suffering and death on the cross

1 Pet 2:22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he entrusted himself to who judges justly.

That’s absolute trust in God, the same we are asked. OSAS presumes to tell God “Hey I’m in”, without Him judging the secrets of the heart. That’s not trust and frankly the opposite of humility.

Lk 23:46 refers to psalm 31, where the suffering servant puts is absolute trust in God. Christ knows exactly what He is saying and still teaching from the cross

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[dcana]

No of course not.

But that does not mean that the Holy Spirit cannot come outside the Sacrament of Baptism …outside that ordinary way given.

And in the “given facts of the story” he did.

Of course one is to proclaim Christ - his death and resurrection and true life in him by grace via faith and baptism…

even though it is possible for Jesus to work in other ways.

But that was not the persons question. He gave a particular story so I responded to that particular story. To the facts as given. Though I too added some later…

All right.

Of course, the original question was, “Does this person have complete and total assurance and a 100% guarantee of their salvation?” It really doesn’t make much sense. It’s like asking, “Let’s suppose that there is an Incan living in South America in the 13th century who tried to live as good a life as he knew how, taking care of his family, being kind to others, and acting in good conscience as God inspired him, so that at the end of his life God, working outside the sacraments, found him worthy to receive the effects of Christ’s redemption so that he forgave him his sins and he entered heaven. Does he have a ‘complete and total assurance and a 100% guarantee of his salvation?’” I guess in this hypothetical situation he does, though many would say and (especially) have said, that the necessity of baptism is absolute.

It’s like asking if every member of the Elect has a 100% guarantee of salvation and every member of the Reprobate has a 100% guarantee of condemnation. They both do, but they do not know it nor can they know it. There’s no point in asking the question. Of course, none of us know who, including ourselves, are in the respective groups.

What’s important is “what must I do to be saved?” and part of that answer is, “be baptized.” As Peter said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Or you could ask, “what should I do to be condemned?” Part of that answer would be, “don’t be baptized.” As Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

 

[Todd977]

Thank you. But is that the official Roman Catholic teaching?

Yes. For instance, keeping in mind that those with the Holy Spirit living in them are referred to as those in God’s grace, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. (1023)

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (1030)

You don’t have absolute knowledge about whether The Holy Spirit is living inside you?

My own experience of conversion has been absolutely clear about The Holy Spirit. He has radically transformed my entire life and He speaks to me every second of every minute of every hour of everyday.

A conversion experience like yours with many good fruits is certainly strong evidence and sufficient reason for a subjective conviction that the Holy Spirit is probably living in you but it is not sufficient reason for us to say with absolute certainty that the Holy Spirit is living in you. The only sufficient reason for such an absolute certainty would be a special revelation from God. For more on this, see the section on “Uncertainty” in the article on “Sanctifying Grace” in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

 

[Bookcat]

All right.

Of course, the original question was, “Does this person have complete and total assurance and a 100% guarantee of their salvation?” It really doesn’t make much sense. "

I answered their question in a series of posts above.

It was about a person who* in fact *dies in grace (the Holy Spirit in fact according to the story is dwelling within them). So that person by definition is headed for heaven.

Like asking of a dead person – is 100% guaranteed dead?

 

[Bookcat]

Or you could ask, “what should I do to be condemned?” Part of that answer would be, “don’t be baptized.” As Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

That would not be a complete way to interpret the that passage…

 

[dcana]

That would not be a complete way to interpret the that passage…

In what way should it be interpreted?