The way of salvation, and assurance thereof

[TDBlovedbyJC]

I appreciate those of you who have responded.

I encourage you all to fast and pray and ask God to show you whether or not you do in fact have The Holy Spirit.

He can and will give you a direct special revelation. And you will know whether you are in Christ.

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s some articles that should help you.

• Assurance of Salvation?
• What makes a Christian a Catholic?
• Born Again - The Bible Way
• “Are You Saved?” If Only!

also my own blog post…How Is A Catholic Saved?

So the official Roman Catholic teaching is that even those who die in love with Jesus and filled with The Holy Spirit cannot be assured of salvation?

Didn’t God give us a pledge guaranteeing the salvation of all who die with The Holy Spirit living inside of them?

“And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.” Ephesians 1:13-14

It appears that you just completely ignored my first post with the links to very relevant teachings so that you can properly understand why I said that. It seems to me that you have your mind made up about what we believe and God forbid that we should bother you with facts.

Several of us have already explained to you why we believe what we do and yet you haven’t bothered to read the articles that I gave you. Are you even really here to get facts and truth or just to argue?

So I’ll give you a very clear and Biblical Catholic response to our assurance of salvation. Look up the scriptures and let it sink in and please don’t wast all our time by not carefully checking out everything we offer, okay?

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I *will be *saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

 

[Church_Militant]

The fact is that what we have here is an n-C who has offered a fairly routine attack on supposed Catholic belief and salvation.

They love to entangle Catholics in this whole “If you died tonight do you know that you would go to Heaven?” bit, and, because most of them believe in the errant doctrine of OSAS/eternal security of the believer, they use that as a platform to seek to proselytize us away from our most holy faith. Having come from several largely wasted decades within their n-C ranks, I’ve seen this/been subjected to this so many times that I’ve lost count.

They have been taught that they can know that they are going to heaven just because they “prayed a sinners prayer” and “got saved” as the one time event that they (wrongly) believe salvation is and to this day I have been unable to reconcile that with what I see in a simple reading of the New Testament. To steal a phrase from Jimmy Buffett, “The God’s honest truth is, it’s not that simple.”

Here are 2 of my blog articles that I think will help put this person’s posts in a proper context and allow us all (OP included…if he’s honest) to rest assured in our salvation and escape being bogged down in the unscriptural fuzzy thinking that his theology requires.

See this for what it really is my friends…an n-C effort to evangelize Catholics by alleging that we hold an unbiblical belief about salvation and it is really a serious doctrinal error on the OP’s part.

Articles that I know will help.
How Is A Catholic Saved?
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

…and from John Martignoni…
Once Saved Always Saved

 

[Nicene]

To be honest I figured that out after his third post. They are basically the same as JW’s who come to the door. Not much you can do, other than put it out there as to what we believe. Cult mindset is tough to penetrate.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Bookcat]

In what way should it be interpreted?

The fact that a person is not baptized - does not mean that per se they will be not be saved.

God can work outside the Sacraments.

And there is a big difference for example between a person knowingly rejecting baptism and a person not knowing of baptism or being honestly mistaken about the importance of it.

 

[sudy]

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

The issue of baptism by desire in this case is questionable as the OP states that the person dies believing in the Gospel in their heart. So, they know the Gospel. Jesus says in the Gospel of John ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.’ Being baptised is all throughout the New Testament so I’m not sure how one can be ignorant of baptism and know the Gospel, too.

And what about… ‘Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you.’ Christ is the new Paschal Lamb, and we are meant to eat the flesh and drink the blood, which is life. And what about reconciliation?

Perhaps we could suppose that the person in this instance only knew certain aspects of their faith?

In any case, I fully acknowledge that God can work outside of the Sacraments.

 

[Bookcat]

The issue of baptism by desire in this case is questionable as the OP states that the person dies believing in the Gospel in their heart. .

One cannot say a given fact is “questionable” for it is in the story “a fact”.

In the story given in the question - the person actually has the Holy Spirit dwelling within - that is a given fact in the story. And the person dies in that state. Another given fact in the story.

So the answer is the person is headed for heaven.

(I will note though that just because a person is said to “believe the Gospel” does not mean that they understood the need for baptism…many things can keep that from happening…but then again that is getting us off topic)

 

[TDBlovedbyJC]

last night I mad a post in this thread thanking you all for responding and encouraging you that if you doubt whether you have The Holy Spirit that you can fast and pray and God will reveal this to you (whether you do in fact have The Holy Spirit or not)

that post has been deleted by a moderator and I was issued a warning for proselytizing.

I came here with the sincere desire to discuss the Scriptures with an open mind and an open heart to Catholicism. I was confirmed a Catholic as a child, long before I ever came to know Christ. I was an atheist back then. But a few years ago the Lord came into my life and radically transformed me. Jesus has been so good to me. Part of this process of growing in Him has been given a fair ear to the claims of the Roman Catholic church. I did not spam this forum with tons of different objections to your dogmas. I posted on single forum and I asked non-confrontation, sincere questions in a polite manner. I did not attack any of your or tell anyone that they are wrong about anything.

now, for suggesting that God will reveal to you whether you have The Holy Spirit through prayer and fasting, I have been labeled a rule breaker. I have had my post deleted. I have been warned for proselytizing.

I am going to take this experience as a sign from God about the nature of Catholicism. if I am warned for “proselytizing” for simply suggesting that God can reveal to you whether you do have The Holy Spirit or now - if I am to be punished for encouraging prayer and fasting - then I know all I need to know about Catholicism.

I do wish you all well. Although, based on the manner in which the moderators handled my previous post, it is highly unlikely you will ever read this one. But may God bless you all, and especially the moderator… who will probably be the only one to read this post before it is deleted and I am banned.

-Taylor Barrett

 

[Bookcat]

I am going to take this experience as a sign from God about the nature of Catholicism. if I am warned for “proselytizing” for simply suggesting that God can reveal to you whether you do have The Holy Spirit or now - if I am to be punished for encouraging prayer and fasting - then I know all I need to know about Catholicism.

-Taylor Barrett

Then you would be *mistaking *the Forum for the Catholic Church.

That is not a “sign from God” about the nature of the Church. But simply the rules of the Forum.

The Forum has its particular rules (for all - Catholics too must follow them or be warned etc by moderators).

Your not being punished for encouraging prayer and fasting (something the Catholic Church highly encourages!).

By the way - I responded in several posts to you up above - did you see those?

I too wish you well and as a former Protestant who came into full communion with the Catholic Church many years ago - I wish to encourage you in your continued seeking…

 

[Bookcat]

So the official Roman Catholic teaching is that even those who die in love with Jesus and filled with The Holy Spirit cannot be assured of salvation?

If a person *in fact *dies in love with Jesus and “filled with the Holy Spirit” - that means they are dying in a state of Grace - and so as I noted above -by definition theologically that would mean they are headed for heaven.

Now a different question is - is such and such person in such a state? God knows absolutely. Paul himself knew he could not in the end judge himself (1 Cor 4:3-5).

Didn’t God give us a pledge guaranteeing the salvation of all who die with The Holy Spirit living inside of them?

Ephesians 1:13-14

(such does not mean that the person will not or could not fall away before they receive the “fullness”…)

The word that was translated there as “guarantee” is *arrabon * and it refers to a “pledge” or “down payment” of what is to come…a “first installment”.

The Holy Spirit given at baptism etc is yes an *arrabon *of what is to come …

 

[pablope]

last night I mad a post in this thread thanking you all for responding and encouraging you that if you doubt whether you have The Holy Spirit that you can fast and pray and God will reveal this to you (whether you do in fact have The Holy Spirit or not)

that post has been deleted by a moderator and I was issued a warning for proselytizing.

 

[pablope]

So the official Roman Catholic teaching is that even those who die in love with Jesus and filled with The Holy Spirit cannot be assured of salvation?

Didn’t God give us a pledge guaranteeing the salvation of all who die with The Holy Spirit living inside of them?

“And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.” Ephesians 1:13-14

Romans 11 says the following:

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[TDBlovedbyJC]

Now a different question is - is such and such person in such a state? God knows absolutely. Paul himself knew he could not in the end judge himself (1 Cor 4:3-5).

Paul did say that only God can judge him…

But Paul also said this:

“I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:7-8

Paul, in prison, knowing he is about to die, states unequivocally: The Lord **WILL **award him the crown of righteousness. And not only to Paul, but to ALL who long for Christ’s coming.

Paul does not say “I think I probably will make it to heaven.” Paul declares boldly: "I have finished the race! Now the Lord will award me! Not maybe, not probably, this WILL happen.

Just like Paul says in Romans “If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved.” It is not, if you do these things, you might be saved. YOU WILL BE SAVED. Not probably. Paul did not say it would be likely. He said it WILL happen.

John says “I write these things to you who believe in the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” John does not say “I write so that you may hope that you have eternal life.” John says… "so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.

In Acts, the jailer asks Paul: “What must I do to be saved?” Paul does not say “well, you cant really be sure that your going to be saved. But if you believe in Jesus and take part in our Christian religious ceremonies, you have a reasonably good chance of being saved.” No. Paul responds: “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and YOU **WILL BE **SAVED.” He does not say “might be saved.” He says WILL BE saved.

 

[TDBlovedbyJC]

You should instead pray for humility and a self examination of what the infraction is for, recognize it for what it is…and move on.

Here you go. Take a look for yourself. Read my reply. Tell me which rule I broke. Tell me how I was “proselytizing.”

**
Dear TDBlovedbyJC,

You have received a warning at Catholic Answers Forums.

Reason:​

Proselytizing

Your post has been removed and you are warned not to proselytize Catholic members as this post does.

You are free to disagree and discuss or debate, any further posts seeking to convert Catholics away from our faith will further violate the rules and guidelines in my signature line below and could cause the permanent closure of your account here on CAF.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
Very sincerely,​

Original Post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13973049

Quote:
*I appreciate those of you who have responded.

I encourage you all to fast and pray and ask God to show you whether or not you do in fact have The Holy Spirit.

He can and will give you a direct special revelation. And you will know whether you are in Christ. *

Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum’s rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

All the best,
Catholic Answers Forums **

 

[TDBlovedbyJC]

Romans 11 says the following:

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

This is the second time now in this thread that someone has drifted off topic. Before someone assumed that I am interested in discussing “Sola Fide” and now you are assuming that I am interested in discussing “once saved, always saved” (or, perseverance of the saints).

I have not brought up either of these issues in anyway. If you would like me to share what I believe the Bible says about these two issues, I will be more than happy to do so. But right now I am simply talking about how we know we are saved.

 

[Bookcat]

Paul did say that only God can judge him…

Did you go read what he wrote there in the verses I noted…?

 

[TDBlovedbyJC]

this whole idea that “we cannot be sure whether we have The Holy Spirit or not” is really quite perplexing

do you think it possible to have the very Spirit of God living inside you without you noticing it in the slightest???

Paul encourages believers to examine themselves to find out whether or not they do in fact have The Holy Spirit inside them:

“Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?” 2 Corinthians 13:7

The idea here is that the Corinthians will in fact be able to determine whether or not they have the Spirit of Christ living inside them.

 

[Bookcat]

But Paul also said this:

“I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:7-8

Amen!

Just like Paul says in Romans “If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved.” It is not, if you do these things, you might be saved. YOU WILL BE SAVED. Not probably. Paul did not say it would be likely. He said it WILL happen.

AMEN!

(that does not mean that in the future one will remain so…for one may fall away by ones own choice)

 

[TDBlovedbyJC]

Did you go read what he wrote there in the verses I noted…?

Yes, of course, and before I even looked at the Scripture, I already knew what it said, because I know the Bible. Do you? Because Paul is not saying what you think he is saying in that verse. Paul is saying that merely having a clean conscience does not mean that a person has not sinned. It is possible for a person to have sin and yet have a clean conscience because they did not know that what they did was in fact sin. That is what Paul says “My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.”

Did you read the following verses? About “not going past what is written,” ?

 

[Bookcat]

In Acts, the jailer asks Paul: “What must I do to be saved?” … Paul responds: “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and YOU **WILL BE **SAVED.” He does not say “might be saved.” He says WILL BE saved.

Amen.

And he believes and is baptized.

Amen!

Peter Preached after the coming of the Holy Spirit - in response to the crowd asking similar questions - what are we to do - he said “repent and be baptized” and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

Amen!

And one can add as Peter says in his letter “baptism now saves you”…

Amen.

They though are to remain living in Christ and not depart from him …not turn away from their Faith and their life in Christ.