The way of salvation, and assurance thereof

[TDBlovedbyJC]

If Benedict meant what he said - that every person who believes in their heart is justified - then he would, in effect, be repudiating historical Roman Catholicism.

Believing in your heart takes no movement of the human will in effort. It is merely an openness to the grace of God found in Christ.

This is the trans-denominational gospel of Jesus. All who believe in their heart are saved. Period.

Evangelical Protestantism is based upon this doctrine. Roman Catholics have anathematized us for teaching it.

 

[Bookcat]

If *Pope *Benedict meant what he said - that every person who believes in their heart is justified - then he would, in effect, be repudiating historical Roman Catholicism.

Believing in your heart takes no movement of the human will in effort. It is merely an openness to the grace of God found in Christ.

.

A no.

And no.

(oh and the term is the* Catholic Church*…the term “Roman Catholicism” would be a rather misnomer…)

Persons would not have to be exhorted to believe if human will was not involved. It is a “both and”. God created us without us but will not save us without us as St. Augustine noted. There would be no pointing evangelizing. Persons are to “repent” and “believe” …they are involved (though yes it is by Grace!)

Walk in The Holy Spirit

Amen! Though the translation “by” is I think better than in. Though both get used.

Every day one of my prayers is that I “walk by the Spirit” and “walk in love”.

Here I know you not too interested in reading links -but this is very short and we are having a conversation and I would like it if you read this little short reading

Please take the time to and slowly: w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061115.html

This is the trans-denominational gospel of Jesus. All who believe in their heart are saved. Period.

Well some Christians yes believe that baptism is not a normative necessity -but they are only some.

And such would be contrary to Sacred Scripture.

 

[Bookcat]

Is Baptism important and normatively necessary? Yes. Can it happen that a person be saved without baptism? Yes it is possible (for example a person who does not know about it or is preparing for it and dies…etc).

Can the Holy Spirit work prior to baptism and in ways we do not even know? Yes. But baptism is very important. In baptism one as Paul notes - dies and is buried with Christ - and rises with him. One is baptized into Christ Jesus.

What did Jesus say at the end of the Gospel of Mark? He said to go and proclaim the good news to all…and those who believe and are baptized will be saved…

---

What happened there in Acts at Pentecost?

Peter Preached the Gospel - preached Jesus Christ- preached his death and his resurrection - that he is Lord.

The crowd were cut to the heart and asked him…what are we to do?

And what did he reply?

Repent and be baptized - and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

More than 3000 were added that very day to the Church!

Ordinarily it is - faith and repentance and baptism.

(And of course it does not stop there - then of course like Acts - there is the fellowship and learning the teachings…the Eucharist etc etc the whole Christian life - and as Paul notes - walking in newness of life…walking by the Spirit …etc)

 

[Bookcat]

That is what happened- people heard the Gospel - believed (by grace…but yes still involving their will -their yes!) and they repented and were then baptized! And as Peter said at Pentecost -they received the Holy Spirit…etc

 

[TDBlovedbyJC]

Going back through this thread I noticed a couple responses that I originally did not see. So I would like to say a couple things.

I am not on this site to convert anyone. I myself was confirmed as a Catholic as a young child although I did not believe in God back then I just did the ceremony to please my mom. But a few years ago Jesus came into my life and He has radically transformed me (and is still transforming me). I have a calling on my life to minister in Christ’s church and I am in the process of figuring out what that looks like. Part of this process for me is to give Roman Catholicism a fair hearing. I do not want to argue against God’s church if it is in fact His church. However, both the Scriptures and my own experience of conversion seem to be directly at odds with historical Roman Catholicism. So I am here to talk to real Roman Catholics about what they believe and what they have experienced in order to get a better understanding of this whole issue. My prayer is that both myself and you all will be edified by my presence on these forums. I do not intend to spam this forum with all the old Protestant arguments. I only want to discuss those things that God has put on my heart at this present moment and to do so with complete authenticity. I am not interested in copying and pasting other peoples arguments and I hope all of you will be authentic with me as well. In fact, I am not here at all to argue. Just to understand and discuss our beliefs and experiences.

A quick couple things… several of you have accused me of believing “Once Saved, Always Saved,” as if that doctrine is somehow evil. For one, I do not believe in that doctrine. I think it very possible that someone can fall away from the faith and lose salvation in the process. Yet, I do know some very intelligent, very faithful, Holy Spirit filled men who believe that doctrine. They would not call it “Once Saved, Always Saved,” but would rather call it “Perseverance of the Saints.” Some of the most Jesus loving, God honoring, Holy Spirit filled Christian leaders today are avid Calvinists who subscribe to this doctrine. And, from the standpoint of predestination, there is something to it.

Now, this post below is one example of something that troubles me about Roman Catholicism…

All right.
Of course, the original question was, “Does this person have complete and total assurance and a 100% guarantee of their salvation?” It really doesn’t make much sense. It’s like asking, “Let’s suppose that there is an Incan living in South America in the 13th century who tried to live as good a life as he knew how, taking care of his family, being kind to others, and acting in good conscience as God inspired him, so that at the end of his life God, working outside the sacraments, found him worthy to receive the effects of Christ’s redemption so that he forgave him his sins and he entered heaven. Does he have a ‘complete and total assurance and a 100% guarantee of his salvation?’” I guess in this hypothetical situation he does, though many would say and (especially) have said, that the necessity of baptism is absolute.

You compare the salvation of non-Catholic Christians to the salvation of non-Christian pagans!

This is an outrage. Jesus and His apostles taught that the dividing line between the saved and the unsaved was drawn between Christians and non-Christians, period.

But you all created a doctrine that the dividing line was between Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics.

Now, because the Great Awakening and the fruitfulness of Evangelicalism has demanded that you acknowledge the salvation of non-Catholic Christians, you for some reason feel that you can extend this to non-Christians also.

You compare the salvation of non-Catholic Christians to the salvation of non-Christian pagans and unbelievers!

You say, “Well, we though that only Roman Catholics could be saved. But now we see that regular old Christians can be saved too. I guess if God can save the Christian He can save the pagan and unbeliever too!”

You have muddled the water! The dividing line has always been between Christians and non-Christians.

 

[TDBlovedbyJC]

Is Baptism important and normatively necessary? Yes. Can it happen that a person be saved without baptism? Yes it is possible (for example a person who does not know about it or is preparing for it and dies…etc).

Can the Holy Spirit work prior to baptism and in ways we do not even know? Yes. But baptism is very important. In baptism one as Paul notes - dies and is buried with Christ - and rises with him. One is baptized into Christ Jesus.

What did Jesus say at the end of the Gospel of Mark? He said to go and proclaim the good news to all…and those who believe and are baptized will be saved…

---

What happened there in Acts at Pentecost?

Peter Preached the Gospel - preached Jesus Christ- preached his death and his resurrection - that he is Lord.

The crowd were cut to the heart and asked him…what are we to do?

And what did he reply?

Repent and be baptized - and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

More than 3000 were added that very day to the Church!

Ordinarily it is - faith and repentance and baptism.

(And of course it does not stop there - then of course like Acts - there is the fellowship and learning the teachings…the Eucharist etc etc the whole Christian life - and as Paul notes - walking in newness of life…walking by the Spirit …etc)

You know I am not really too concerned with baptism. Your teaching of “baptism by desire” is basically just a loophole for your “baptismal regeneration” to include every true conversion. Because truly, everyone who truly believes receives The Holy Spirit at that very same moment. There may be a second blessing they have yet to receive, such that they can speak in tongues and work miracles by faith, but all who have Jesus in their heart have The Holy Spirit there also.

If you want, we can look at the Scriptures themselves to see what they say about this. The amount of Scripture that equates the moment of belief with the moment of reception of The Holy Spirit far outweigh those that would place the moment upon baptism.

 

[Bookcat]

You know I am not really too concerned with baptism. .

Jesus was (and is).

Because truly, everyone who truly believes receives The Holy Spirit at that very same moment. There may be a second blessing they have yet to receive, such that they can speak in tongues and work miracles by faith, but all who have Jesus in their heart have The Holy Spirit there also.

Faith and repentance and baptism formed a whole. To parse them out as of believing was all that was important or necessary would be to misconstrue the New Testament and the early history.

Was the Holy Spirit at work in the person already having faith? Yes of course.

Did the Holy Spirit manifest prior to Baptism like he did at Pentecost and at time at Baptism? Yes in* one recorded case* - that of Cornelius and his house. That was seen as quite* unusual *and as such was part of the very sign to Peter that they gentiles could be baptized and become Christians!

He did not withhold that by which normally the Holy Spirit came - Baptism (as he said in Acts - be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit).

Again returning to what I noted -ordinarily it was all of one piece - they would not have dreamed of separating them - it was all of a whole - faith -repentance and baptism -and they received the Holy Spirit and became a new creation etc etc

 

[fhansen]

If Benedict meant what he said - that every person who believes in their heart is justified - then he would, in effect, be repudiating historical Roman Catholicism.

Believing in your heart takes no movement of the human will in effort. It is merely an openness to the grace of God found in Christ.

This is the trans-denominational gospel of Jesus. All who believe in their heart are saved. Period.

Evangelical Protestantism is based upon this doctrine. Roman Catholics have anathematized us for teaching it.

If you understand Catholicism-and the gospel-you’ll know that faith (“believing in your heart” or however one wants to word it), is the doorway to communion with God, apart from whom we can do nothing. It’s the foundation of justification for man because man’s rift with God in Eden was the beginning of humanity’s injustice. But faith is in no way the be-all and end-all of* justice* for man. Faith does not* equate* to justice, as if that’s all God desires of us-and for us. In fact, paul tells us in 1 Cor 13 that
"… if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." **

Love, the very image of God that we’re to be transformed into, is what constitutes justice for man, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. This is what faith must lead to and this is why Paul would also say in 1 Cor 13, “And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.” Love fulfills the law and excludes sin by its nature, and love, BTW, is what Adam lacked in Eden: love of God would’ve precluded his act of disobedience. Love is the epitome of perfection ,excellence, holiness, righteousness for man. It’s God’s whole desire for us. It produces peace, joy, happiness. It’s what we’re here, from Adam onward, to cultivate, with the help of grace. Faith should lead to, but doesn’t guarantee, it. As Augustine said, "Without love faith can indeed exist, but avails nothing."

And love, BTW, *works, * by its nature producing the kinds of fruit described in Matt 25:31-46, by which we’ll be judged.

 

[Cathoholic]

TDBlovedbyJC.

I said:

QUOTE:
I think “confessing with your mouth” IS required (for those that CAN).

St. Paul says if I confess with my mouth AND believe in my heart.

And you seem to telling me something different (concerning this verse that you already cited).

ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

NOT ROMANS 10:9 (phantom verse) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” that’s a good thing but it is not absolutely required. But the ONLY requirement is that you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, than you will be saved.​

TDBlovedbyJC. You replied . . . .

QUOTE:
You missed the point. Believing in your heart is what causes confessing with the mouth.

But St. Paul never said that! (It is a partial truth, but not a full truth)

You also said:

QUOTE:
Believing in your heart is present tense and on-going.

That’s right. Believing NEEDS to be “ongoing”!

Our salvation is contingent upon persevering (“But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved”—Jesus in Matthew 24:12)

You need to KEEP believing and confessing Christ (yes aided by Grace to be sure, but we can REJECT that Grace too).

And St. Paul warns us NOT everybody does “keep believing”.

You can throw away your gift of faith!

St. Paul in his letters to Timothy makes just this warning.

• Some have “wandered away (from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith)” (1st Timothy 1:6)
• Some have “shipwrecked their faith” (1st Timothy 1:19)
• Some “abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.” (1st Timothy 4:1)
• Some have “denied the faith” (1st Timothy 5:8)
• Some have “wandered from the faith” (1st Timothy 6:21)
• Some have “wandered away from the truth” (2nd Timothy 2:18)

You can sadly choose to reject your faith!

And if you DO throw away your faith are you saved anyway? No! Sacred Scripture (and the CCC 161) says:

HEBREWS 11:6a 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, . . .

TDBlovedbyJC. You said:

QUOTE:
When a person believes in their heart, they confess with their mouth. When a person believes in their heart, they live for God. When a person believes in their heart, they are given The Holy Spirit and are regenerated.

TDBlovedbyJC. You also said:

QUOTE:
Believing in your heart is what causes confessing with the mouth.

Let’s look at that.

I understand this is your tradition, but it is only a partial truth and is not fully Biblical and some of it is error.

ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

NOT ROMANS 10:9 (phantom verse) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you must have believed in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead because believing in your heart is what causes confessing with the mouth and so this declaration flowed from that belief. Therefore you will be saved.

Here is a story about FAITH to move mountains.

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3,13 2b if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

And here is NOT what was taught by St. Paul . . .

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3,13 (Phantom Verse) 2b if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, **it can’t happen. So if I have faith, I’ll have love anyway ** because I not only “believed” but I “Believed” to the point where I could move mountains. And when a person believes in their heart, they live for God . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is faith because it is a prerequisite for other things that necessarily follow from faith and because I am justified by faith ALONE.

You said:

QUOTE:
When a person believes in their heart, they confess with their mouth. When a person believes in their heart, they live for God.

What if they don’t “live for God”?

What if like St. Paul warned, they “believe” to move mountains but don’t live for God? Do they have Heaven anyway?

Or do they “gain nothing” and they have . . . .not Heaven . . . . but “have nothing”?

ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[sudy]

Your lack of concern for baptism is surprising considering your love of the Gospel and that Jesus asked us to baptize. As a former Catholic yourself, you have received your baptism and confirmation as a child, even though you did not believe in God at that time. You were given the teachings, even though you didn’t care about them. There’s every reason to believe that your baptism played a part in your present day faith.

You seem to be greatly surprised that people can have the Holy Spirit living within and yet don’t remember being struck by something equivalent to a lightning bolt. People do grow in faith, hope and love over time. It’s not all about speaking in tongues. It’s much like the parable of the sower… springing up quickly, without depth of soil, is not the camp we want to be in. Growing in rich soil is what yields the good harvest.

The Holy Spirit comes bearing many different gifts and we are not each given the same, nor in the same amount.

As you’re filled with the Holy Spirit already… I’ve no desire to find fault with you, yet I do find certain things you’re saying troubling. It’s the line you say that Jesus and his disciples have drawn at non Christians, period. We, as Catholics, believe in a baptism by desire for those without opportunity to know God fully but who seek truth and do his will anyway, and we believe that love can cover a multitude of sins. You appear to have damned these people already. We are not to judge. God alone is judge of all. And also, we don’t speak of guarantees of being saved, we speak of hope, and trust. We hope, and trust, in our salvation. We are saved at the present moment in our present state of grace, yet we do not know the future. There is temptation and evil all around us. We try to do the will of God in our daily lives, this is our goal. Rejecting sin requires effort and is a daily task, and we do it for love of God …yet sin is everywhere. It’s the accepted norm. We persevere in prayer and we approach the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments willingly for God’s grace to keep us on the path toward God. We know that no one can snatch us from the hands of the Lord, but we also know that we could jump out by temptation and sin.

 

[po18guy]

If you are not baptized, you are not Christian. Word.

You cannot say that a person who dies loving Jesus in their heart and with The Holy Spirit inside them will absolutely, 100% go to Heaven?

Is this the official Roman Catholic teaching?

For an adult, belief is only half of the equation. If you will not heed the words of Christ, at least follow Paul and get baptized (Acts 9:18). The baptism that now saves you (1 Pt 3:21). The washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5). He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16). But still not so simple. God must recognize us by our love (Jn 13, Jn 15), and we must produce good fruits that bear evidence of our repentance (Mt 3:8, Lk 3:8). We must remain in the love of God or we will be cut off (Romans 11:22)

Baptism places you in a state of grace (1 Pt 3) - but you may fall from this state by willfully sinning! Christ says that you must persevere to the end to be saved (Mt 10, Mt 24, Mk13). Paul says you have to run the race so as to win (1 Cor 9, Phil 3). Paul exhorted the Christians in Corinth to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5), and Paul forgave post-baptismal sins in the person of Christ (2 Cor 2). There are numerous other such examples.

Following Jesus is not as simple as the non-biblical “sinner’s prayer.” It is not a state of mind, but a way of life.

 

[LatinRight]

Blessings

To understand baptism first we have to understand our fallen spiritual position.

OUR FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION

a. We are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. We are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. We are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. We “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: we see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND our UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14 Emphasize mine.

To be able to receive the Spirit of God, FIRST we need new spiritual life.
This is sometimes called “Born Again.”

Col.2:13; Explains:
“And you, BEING DEAD in your trespasses … He has made you alive, … having forgiven you all trespasses.” – This resurrection/born again and forgiveness of sins/justification, takes place at baptism.

In our baptism, there is God’s part to do and our part to do.

God’s part to do in our baptism ALWAYS PRECEDES our water baptism.

This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in the understanding of baptism.

GOD’S PART TO DO IN OUR BAPTISM IS THE FIRST STAGE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION/INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

GOD’S WORK IN OUR BAPTISM IN FINE DETAILS

1. God JUSTIFIED us. – At our justification God has DECLARED us JUST and DECLARED us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24; Rom.8:15.
2. God RE-CREATED us. – At our re-creation God MADE us SONS of God and NEW CREATIONS/BORN AGAIN by given us a new heart, given us a new spirit and God put His Spirit into us – Ez.36:26-27; 2 Cor.5:17; 1 Cor.3:16; 1 Cor.6:19.
3. GOD SANCTIFIED us. – At our sanctification God has completely washed us clean, made us holy (our spirit + soul). – 1 Cor.6:11; 1 Pet.2:9;
   etc.

We may call it our first purgatory as God has completely washed us clean. – It was an instant event.

1. At our baptism God has:

a. delivered us from the power of darkness and taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven, – Col. 1:13; Eph.2:6.

b. baptized us into the body of Christ, – 1 Cor.12:13, 27.

c. from spiritual death, in Christ God made us spiritually alive, – 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.2:1.

d. made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

e. then God delivered us (our spirit + soul) back to earth as Christ’s ambassadors. – 2 Cor. 5:20.

All of the above works of God is an instant event, we don’t even realize it and in this work for three reasons we cannot even co-operated with the grace of God.

First reason: We are spiritually dead and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God. – This is our spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.

**
Second reason:** Our initial justification and born again in our baptism is an instant event.

Third reason: The above work of God taken us to the state of grace.
Until we are in the state of grace we cannot do supernatural merit.

Meaning man does nothing and could do nothing, to enter the state of (initial) justification. – Because spiritually dead at the beginning and the end initially justified and born again, the whole process is an instant event.

In the sequence of the events, first God does His part in our Baptism, as the results; we are spiritually alive/born again, initially justified, and we are in the state of grace.

This is the point when God gives us His gift of faith and we are able to positively respond to it. – Because we are spiritually alive, initially justified, we are in the state of grace.

As we see above the necessity of God’s works in our baptism is absolute.

Apart from God first does His part in our baptism we are spiritually dead and we “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14.

It is solely God’s work and always PRECEDES our water baptism.

This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in, because at this point we are born again, initially justified, we are in the state of grace and we are not yet water baptized.

Sometimes it is a great distance between God does his part in our baptism and we do our part in our water baptism.

If some reason we are not able to do our part of the baptism that doesn’t stop God to do His part of our baptism which gives us initial justification, spiritual resurrection/born again and puts us into the state of grace and if we die enable us to go to heaven. – And of course His part to do in our baptism, always PRECEDES our water baptism.

If we die the next minute after our baptism we go INSTANTLY back home to heaven.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[TobyLue]

I for one have trouble taking anybody seriously when they state

Part of this process for me is to give Roman Catholicism a fair hearing.

Time and time again this poster uses the term “Roman Catholic" Like

Now, this post below is one example of something that troubles me about Roman Catholicism…

,

But you all created a doctrine that the dividing line was between Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics. Can a Roman Catholic affirm that this person

Boookcat posted these

By the way - please use the term the Catholic Church - not “Rome”. Thanks.

And again

(oh and the term is the Catholic Church…the term “Roman Catholicism” would be a rather misnomer…)

but is ignored and continues to use “Roman Catholic”

Also TDBlovedbyJC quotes

However, both the Scriptures and my own experience of conversion seem to be directly at odds with historical Roman Catholicism. If you want, we can look at the Scriptures themselves to see what they say about this.

and

It is not a matter of interpretation. The Scriptures are plain

If the scriptures are plain why does St. Peter say in 1 Peter 3:16 … In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures."

We don’t go with “experiences” or maybe because “we have the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit it teaching me and revealing to me”… Jesus did not leave us orphans. He left us a Church and as it says in 1 Tim 3:15 it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of Truth, and not the bible. The bible does not speak for itself. Where do we find in scripture where Jesus commanded that the Bible be written. Don’t take me wrong. I believe in Scripture but as Catholics we do not rely on our feelings or experience of euphoria to know we have the Holy Spirit. We believe in the words of Jesus when he said to “listen to the Church”
Also this quote

have a calling on my life to minister in Christ’s church and I am in the process of figuring out what that looks like.

By what criteria will you determine that? Will it be your looking into scripture, base Catholic teachings according to YOUR interpretations and beliefs? Should your interpretations trump 2000 years of Catholicism? When people say that they are troubled by what the CC teaches I have to ask: who made you the final arbitrator of Scripture? Their reply is consistent: I have the Holy Spirit. I studied. The Holy Spirit told me. To which I reply That’s why we have so many variations of Only Scripture churches. Someone said on another forum something like “The more we distance ourselves from the CC, the less and less we resemble true Christianity” Reminds me of a movie I saw many years ago “Multiplicity” where a guy clones himself, then that clone make a clone of himself then that clone does the same thing to where the fourth clone, if I remember correctly is really defective. Ever try making a photo copy of a copy, of a copy of a copy and you will notice how the last copy you make has little semblance to the original one? Same thing with the CC. Many Christian churches out there are hardly recognizable as the Church that followed the Apostles even though they call themselves " Apostolic Church".

Look at history and see which Church goes back to the Apostles and to Jesus Himself. Did Jesus ever say for everyone to read the bible and figure it out for themselves or did he leave us a Church? Who did Jesus give authority to? Where did Jesus say to write down everything He was teaching? Who determined the necessity of compiling Jesus’ teachings into one book? Do we say we believe in Jesus but believe according to our own whims and desires or do we believe in all that He taught? If there is something that we don’t understand or for some reason don’t what to believe (as in the Eucharist where many walked away because they could not believe it when Jesus said to eat His Body and drink His Blood) do we say according to how we feel that Jesus didn’t actually mean what He said, or do I follow those that He gave authority too? Do we think that because we have studied for a number of years we know better than those that Jesus gave authority to bind and loose?

And if the CC is NOT the true church, then which is it and can that particular church boldly make the claim and prove it?

Many say that they follow only scripture, but then make their own interpretations. It’s like trying to stand all the time on one leg. The CC is more like a tripod. We have Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium and that is a solid stance, my friend.

 

[Todd977]

Why can’t we know with absolute certainty that the Holy Spirit is living in us, except by a special revelation from God? Because, relying on our own imperfect knowledge and powers of discernment, there is always the possibility that we are being deceived. The New Testament writers repeatedly warned Christians against deceiving themselves (1 Cor 3:18; Gal 6:3; James 1:26; 1 John 1:8) and against being deceived by others (1 Cor 6:9;15:33; Gal 6:7; Eph 5:6; 2 Thes 2:3; James 1:16, 1 John 3:7; including being deceived by Satan, who “disguises himself as an angel of light.” (2 Cor 11:14)

If people automatically knew all matters of faith with absolute certainty the moment they became Christians, such warnings would have been unnecessary. St Paul’s prayer for Christians that their “love abound more and more with knowledge and all discernment” would have been unnecessary. (Philippians 1:9) Pastors (Ephesians 4:11), elders of the church (Acts 20:17,28), and leaders (Hebrews 13:17) would have all been unnecessary. In fact, all the pastoral letters of the New Testament would have been unnecessary. All Christians would always be in complete agreement in matters of faith. There would be no dissension among Christians. The council of apostles and the elders in Jerusalem described in Acts 15 would have been unnecessary. It would have been unnecessary for St Paul to lay the gospel he preached before those of repute. (Gal 2:2)

 

[Cathoholic]

Our salvation is a moment followed by a process. A lifelong process.

TDBlovedbyJC. You tried to say we are justified by faith ALONE and implied (to me at least) that our justification was a moment ALONE too.

You cited St. Paul in Romans 10:9 to try to pass off your tradition of justification by faith ALONE.

ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

The problem with this was the very verse you cited refuted justification by faith ALONE!

ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

When I pointed this discrepancy out to you, you (true to your denominational tradition, or as some traditions refer to themselves as . . . “non-denominational” denominations), you claimed the portion of the verse that said IF we confess with our mouth was merely optional and would naturally flow from belief.

I pointed out the verse didn’t say the confess with your mouth work was optional.

Nor did the verse say the work of confessing Christ would automatically flow from belief.

And even if confessing Christ occurred you had to, as Jesus said, “persevere”.

Persevere in faith and persevere in confessing Christ.

Its a lifelong process TDBlovedbyJC.

I showed you explicitly where St. Paul points out faith ALONE is inadequate if it does not have the grace of charity.

I showed you how St. Paul taught that Charity (sometimes translated as “love”) was “greater” than “faith” (certainly BOTH are necessary).

I see your account is now under review.

As I implied, you could see you bringing that on yourself (here).

Also as I said, I hope we can have “the discussion”.

Hopefully your review goes well and you are back here shortly.

In the meantime please consider the very verse you cited . . .

ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

CCC 1270 “Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church” and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.

 

[Cathoholic]

St. Paul . . . .

ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

TDBlovedbyJC . . . .

(Parenthesis and emphasis from TDBlovedbyJC is mine.)

TDBlovedbyJC No, this (declaring with your mouth) is not absolutely required. . . . . The ONLY absolute requirement is to believe in your heart that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

(This above from TDBlovedbyJC is a partial truth.

For example an infant isn’t called to share Christ as an adult would. This obligation to “declare with your mouth” concerns our state in life or as the Church says, “to the best of his ability”.

Contrast TDBlovedbyJC with St. Paul and the Church that Jesus founded.

The “ONLY” from TDBlovedbyJC represents yet another . . . tradition of men that “makes void the word of God”.)

TDBlovedbyJC No, this (declaring with your mouth) is not absolutely required. . . . . The ONLY absolute requirement is to believe in your heart that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

Now St. Paul.

1st CORINTHIANS 9:16b . . . . For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

Some other items from the Church that Jesus founded on the necessity of sharing the truth of Jesus or as St. Paul says, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” . . . .

VATICAN II (Lumen Gentium) 11 a, d The sacred nature and organic structure of the priestly community is brought into operation through the sacraments and the exercise of virtues. Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful are appointed by their baptismal character to Christian religious worship; reborn as sons of God, they must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church.[4] By the sacrament of Confirmation they are more perfectly bound to the Church and are endowed with the special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread the faith by word and deed.[5] . . . .
. . . . Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state–though each in his own way- -are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect.

VATICAN II (Lumen Gentium) 14 b . . . Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but “in body” not “in heart.”[12] All children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be the more severely judged.[13]

VATICAN II (Lumen Gentium) 17 a, c As he had been sent by the Father, the Son himself sent the apostles (cf. Jn. 20:21) saying, “go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and behold I am with you all days even unto the consummation of the world” (Mt. 28:18-20). The Church has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles, and she must fulfil it to the very ends of the earth (cf. Acts 1:8). Therefore, she makes the words of the apostle her own, “Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel” (1 Cor. 9:16), and accordingly never ceases to send heralds of the Gospel until each time as the infant Churches are fully established, and can themselves continue the work of evangelization. For the Church is driven by the Holy Spirit . . . The effect of her work is that whatever good is found sown in the minds and hearts of men or in the rites and customs of peoples, these not only are preserved from destruction, but are purified, raised up, and perfected for the glory of God, the confusion of the devil, and the happiness of man. Each disciple of Christ has the obligation of spreading the faith to the best of his ability.[21]

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3,13 2b if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

JOHN 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I for one have trouble taking anybody seriously when they state Time and time again this poster uses the term “Roman Catholic" Like,
Boookcat posted these
And again but is ignored and continues to use “Roman Catholic”

Also TDBlovedbyJC quotes and
If the scriptures are plain why does St. Peter say in 1 Peter 3:16 … In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures."

We don’t go with “experiences” or maybe because “we have the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit it teaching me and revealing to me”… Jesus did not leave us orphans. He left us a Church and as it says in 1 Tim 3:15 it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of Truth, and not the bible. The bible does not speak for itself. Where do we find in scripture where Jesus commanded that the Bible be written. Don’t take me wrong. I believe in Scripture but as Catholics we do not rely on our feelings or experience of euphoria to know we have the Holy Spirit. We believe in the words of Jesus when he said to “listen to the Church”
Also this quote

By what criteria will you determine that? Will it be your looking into scripture, base Catholic teachings according to YOUR interpretations and beliefs? Should your interpretations trump 2000 years of Catholicism? When people say that they are troubled by what the CC teaches I have to ask: who made you the final arbitrator of Scripture? Their reply is consistent: I have the Holy Spirit. I studied. The Holy Spirit told me. To which I reply That’s why we have so many variations of Only Scripture churches. Someone said on another forum something like “The more we distance ourselves from the CC, the less and less we resemble true Christianity” Reminds me of a movie I saw many years ago “Multiplicity” where a guy clones himself, then that clone make a clone of himself then that clone does the same thing to where the fourth clone, if I remember correctly is really defective. Ever try making a photo copy of a copy, of a copy of a copy and you will notice how the last copy you make has little semblance to the original one? Same thing with the CC. Many Christian churches out there are hardly recognizable as the Church that followed the Apostles even though they call themselves " Apostolic Church".

Look at history and see which Church goes back to the Apostles and to Jesus Himself. Did Jesus ever say for everyone to read the bible and figure it out for themselves or did he leave us a Church? Who did Jesus give authority to? Where did Jesus say to write down everything He was teaching? Who determined the necessity of compiling Jesus’ teachings into one book? Do we say we believe in Jesus but believe according to our own whims and desires or do we believe in all that He taught? If there is something that we don’t understand or for some reason don’t what to believe (as in the Eucharist where many walked away because they could not believe it when Jesus said to eat His Body and drink His Blood) do we say according to how we feel that Jesus didn’t actually mean what He said, or do I follow those that He gave authority too? Do we think that because we have studied for a number of years we know better than those that Jesus gave authority to bind and loose?

And if the CC is NOT the true church, then which is it and can that particular church boldly make the claim and prove it?

Many say that they follow only scripture, but then make their own interpretations. It’s like trying to stand all the time on one leg. The CC is more like a tripod. We have Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium and that is a solid stance, my friend.

I kind of feel that when people call the Church “Roman Catholic” they kind of have an axe to grind. Rome=Pagan=bad! Anyway, I’m really confused about this conversation.

 

[steve_b]

Say *a person comes to believe in their heart that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, that He died for our sins, rose again, and that He is coming back to judge the living and the dead, to reward the righteous and punish the wicked. *

Upon believing this, God fills them with The Holy Spirit. By the grace of God, and by walking according to The Holy Spirit, they become more holy everyday for the rest of their life. They die in this state. They die believing in the gospel in their heart and with The Holy Spirit living inside them.

Can a Roman Catholic affirm that this person, regardless of any denominational affiliation or sacramental participation, will absolutely go to Heaven, with complete and total assurance and a 100% guarantee of their salvation?

Re: your question? No

To expand on that answer

1. 
   *]Salvation comes from Jesus through His Catholic Church He established #34
   *] . If one really believes in Jesus and loves Him, they do whatever He says to do. Meaning once they know this, they will become Catholic in the Catholic Church **846 **They can’t do things their way as opposed to the way He says to live, otherwise that Jesus becomes a Jesus of their own making.
   *] Re: one’s ignorance of the facts that they need to know. If one is truly innocently ignorant of facts they need to know , THEN God has mercy on them, providing they really are innocent of needed knowledge that they don’t have…
   *]Ignorance in this area, isn’t presumed to be innocent however ( 1791 ) therefore one’s own fault…Nor is ignorance presumed to be Invincible ignorance #**14 **, So absent innocent ignorance, one is culpable for the state they are in
   
   *]A person who is NOT Catholic, therefore not in the Church Jesus established, NOT taking advantage of all the means Jesus put in place Himself for our salvation, then can’t presume they are in a state of grace. That is an assumption they can’t make of themselves. So for THEM there is no 100% guarantee of their salvation thus are not assured of heaven.
   
   people “can” be saved who are NOT Catholic, but “can” doesn’t automatically translate to “will”.

 

[steve_b]

You cannot say that a person who dies loving Jesus in their heart and with The Holy Spirit inside them will absolutely, 100% go to Heaven?

Is this the official Roman Catholic teaching?

As far as people “saying” the love Jesus, it maybe just a “said” love.

Jesus made a conditional statement Re: those who “say” they love Him

John 14:15

I can think of all kinds of commands Jesus made that Non Catholics don’t do nor can do unless they come home to the One True Church Jesus established.

 

[kdbueno]

Salvation is met by universally orienting yourself to its divine possibility.