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Ginger2
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Ginger2;4865721:
I have a task for you. When Jesus was at the table with Simon the leper in Bethany, and Mary approached Jesus to anoint him with that expensive perfume, one of the guests, perhaps a Pharisee, criticized the act with the following words: “If he knew who this woman is, he would not allow her to do this.” Can you find where is this written?
Ben:
I mistakenly thought mat 26:6-13; mark 14:3-9 was the passage they were talking of, which does not state Mary is the woman, but I didn’t want to get caught up arguing about who the woman was. My point was that he was reading a lot more into the text then what was actually there.
Apparently the verse everyone else was talking of was John 12:3, where Mary is named as the woman.
The verse you are asking about is: Luke 7:37-39, again this woman is not named
Sorry for any confusion I have caused.
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Ginger2
Guest
Mat 26:6-13; Mark 14:3-9I have a task for you. When Jesus was at the table with Simon the leper in Betany, and Mary approached Jesus to anoint him with that expensive perfume, one of the guests, perhaps a Pharisee, criticized the act with the following words: “If he knew who this woman is, he would not allow her to do this.” Can you find where is this written?
Ben:
Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper. A woman came to him with an alabaster jar of expensive perfumed oil, and she poured it on his head as he was at the table.
(this passage does not state Mary is the woman, but I thought it was the one they were discussing and I didn’t want to get caught up arguing about who the woman was. My point was that he was reading a lot more into the text then what was actually there. )
John 12:1-3
Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, …
They gave a dinner for him there, and Martha served, …
Mary took a liter of costly perfumed oil made from genuine aromatic nard and anointed the feet of Jesus
Luke 7:37-39
**Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, a sinful woman **brought an alabaster jar of perfume, and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. **
**
I think these are actually three different events.
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simplynoone
Guest
I am sorry that you view what I have said as arrogance; that is not a good impression. I was only wanting to share the enlightenment I received from your post.The arrogance! So many, every bit as intelligent, every bit as earnestly seeking and searching, as you, are led to Quran or Bhagvad Gita - or New Testament - by that very same search. So of course they’re ALL wrong and you alone, since you reject all of 'em, are right? Puh-leeze. The only god you worship is the god manufactured by your own mind.
Who says that any of Jesus’ actions must be the products of any negative traits such as craft, slyness or deviousness? That’s an unwarranted assumption on your part.
He said - and showed - more than enough for anyone who cared to pay attention to learn that He is God. Gabriel, Elizabeth and the unborn John the Baptist, the shepherds and Magi who gave Him the gift of incense to honour His divinity, and the Sanhedrin had no doubt about who He claimed to be. Neither did His apostles or disciples, at the very least not after His resurrection (witness Thomas’ worshipping Him as God).
I know I am not always right… all I am doing is drawing up the connections. It was not my brilliant plan to lay out the Truth in such a gorgeous manner within the Scriptures. THAT is intelligence! As I said, Truth… that is my goal and despite your kind compliment concerning my intelligence, I do not see myself as being so intelligent. I could never assume that I am even CLOSE to BEING close to knowing everything there is to know definitively. I will, as long as I am breathing, be searching, thinking, and considering others’ perspectives (even those, and most often those, that are opposing to mine… something interesting can be discovered in just about anything no matter how well we think we may know it… different perspective means different discovery! Personally, I’d get bored if I weren’t this way).
An off the wall side note: I think that surely God learns from our perspectives too as we struggle to understand and learn about Him, His Nature, His ways, the Truth in His Word, and the world around us, don’t you think? I would be sad for Him if He could not experience that thrill of learning that He has seen fit to bless us with via experiences and interactions with each other. Just a thought.
Thank you for your honest opinion of my post, LilyM. It gave me cause to think (as most everything does).
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simplynoone
Guest
I do agree with you… however, I would like to point out that despite sincereness of heart, if one can not be bothered to search the Truth that IS there in front of them, then it does eventually become their choice made. Thus, the reason why those worshiping the golden calf were ultimately held responsible. At that point, they had more than enough evidence of the one True God, as do we; and yet, even as they were at the base of the very mount in which God was educating Moses, they were not patient in waiting for the Truth. They craved that image… something they could relate to right then and there. They failed to see the good things that God wanted to do for them because what they sought after was superficial gratification without being bothered to trust His (God’s) process. God’s ways are much more thrilling… it is His process that should keep us constantly moving closer and closer to Him. If His perfect Ways (including and especially His Laws) are not enough for converting a person’s soul, then that does not fall on Him since He declared them perfect and eternal; nor does the person get to blame Paul, or anyone else ultimately but only their own self for settling on the image (idol, false god, or whatever it is) rather than the Truth.
By the way, I echo your sentiment! “I love Jesus and would defend him against strange maneuvers of Paul.”
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Ginger2
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How is it that you cannot see that you are doing the very thing you accuse others of.
You were convinced that there was absolute proof in the Scriptures Mary M. is “the disciple whom Jesus loved”.
When it was pointed out this could not so because the disciple is a man, you took about two seconds to decide there is absolute proof Lazarus is “the disciple whom Jesus loved”.
How can you believe you are searching for truth when you don’t seem to take the time to study and discern, but instead search for snippets to support your ever-changing position?
IMO, you are not searching for truth, but enjoying the quest of the “I know something you don’t know syndrome”
As you have stated, “despite sincereness of heart, if one can not be bothered to search the Truth that IS there in front of them, then it does eventually become their choice made” to believe a lie, a fable, a fantasy.
And in doing so, they must reject the very truth they claim to seek.
Ginger
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simplynoone
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Now, you are just putting words into my posts that are not there. I said I could be wrong and was up to being shown. I am here to share AND learn… not to dogmatically claim I am right. I used to do that, but then I got over my fear of being wrong. I am not ashamed to change my view and mind as more is revealed to me and I am not ashamed to let others see me doing such. why should I be if what I am after is the Truth for its sake alone and not what it can offer me?
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Ginger2
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simplynoone,Now, you are just putting words into my posts that are not there. I said I could be wrong and was up to being shown. I am here to share AND learn… not to dogmatically claim I am right. I used to do that, but then I got over my fear of being wrong. I am not ashamed to change my view and mind as more is revealed to me and I am not ashamed to let others see me doing such. why should I be if what I am after is the Truth for its sake alone and not what it can offer me?
What is it you hope to gain from discerning whether Mary, Lazarus, John or someone else was the disciple whom Jesus loved?
How will knowing this person’s name change your relationship with God? God’s plan for you eternal future?
Certainly it will not change God, so of what value is this information to you or anyone else?
Don’t you think spending so much time jumping from one speculation to another is a waste of time when there is nothing to gain?
That’s why I am no longer searching the Scriptures to prove one way or the other. It seems more important for me to encourage you to seek God’s Kingdom where you will gain eternal riches.
Think about it…
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simplynoone
Guest
Fair questions. You are right, it will not change God for me to search these things; it will only serve to change me. He is a grounding point for me for as it says in Malachi 3:6, He is the LORD and He changes not; not that He CAN’T, but that is His promise to us so that we can have solid grounding point to guide ourselves as we seek to line our views according to His View. I firmly grasp that promise and so, that is why I take hold of these opportunities… because naturally, if I am seeking for something (anything, including who the beloved disciple was or if Jesus and Mary were married) in His Word, then I am going to learn more about Him. Personally, I can not get enough of learning about Him. I am not trying to fit God into a point of view… I am trying to align my point of view with Him.
What do I hope to gain who it was that was the beloved disciple? well, objectively I take firm grasp also of the promise found at the beginning of Proverbs 2 and so I know that when I follow those conditions, He will keep His promise to answer these questions; and subjectively I am gaining, as I said, more intimate knowledge of Him since I am seeking the answers w/in the Scriptures. I am after His Truth for its sake alone though… so what I gain, knowledge and understanding is my reward.
How will knowing a person’s name change my relationship with God? I do not think it so much changes it since He already loves me fiercely… but for me, getting to know Him better strengthens that bond I have to Him. I want to know His Voice more intimately. It is not enough for me… and I do not exactly know when it will be. Though I do not do it, to answer the attached question you gave, for eternal security or spiritual gifts or anything else. I have this fierce longing to know my Creator more. I am in complete wonder of Him…
Do I think spending so much time jumping from one speculation to another is a waste of time when there is nothing to gain? I think there is MUCH to be gained… so no, it is not a waste of time considering what it is I seek. My appetite to know and to understand is insatiable… it is my favorite way to spend my time; and I do seek it more than just in this way… I learn about Him and His ways through my interaction with my sons; I learn about Him through interactions with those I love; I learn about Him when I am outside surrounded by Nature that He created; and certainly, I learn about Him when I make mistakes. I guess I am always seeking to for the opportunities to learn about Him no matter what I am doing… if that is wasting my time, then I am glad I have found such an enjoyable way to waste it.
And telling me to “think about it” … well, trust me, I am rarely NOT thinking about something. You may see that as a flaw, but it is THE part of me that I do not ever want to change.
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simplynoone
Guest
Oh… and one more question you asked that I did not answer… what do I hope for others to gain from the information?
Well, what I hope they will gain will not be gained whether I am right or wrong if they are not seeking it for their own self. I guess I post my searchings in hopes that others will join in with me. When one refuses to look at a challenging point of view, it means they are trusting their view rather than the Truth. If your view can be shown to be wrong, then why would you still want to hold on to it? I personally would rather admit I am wrong so that I am closer to the Truth than to hold on to a false view. If you take the challenge in all honesty and you are still right, then you have still gained more knowledge just by searching.
So, I took the challenges laid down in the thread in all honesty, because every GREAT once in awhile, someone sees that as validation for their being mistaken… to see someone else willing to be honest. shrugs Regardless, I do not walk away having lost anything, but rather having gained more knowledge of the Scriptures and of Him.
Well, what I hope they will gain will not be gained whether I am right or wrong if they are not seeking it for their own self. I guess I post my searchings in hopes that others will join in with me. When one refuses to look at a challenging point of view, it means they are trusting their view rather than the Truth. If your view can be shown to be wrong, then why would you still want to hold on to it? I personally would rather admit I am wrong so that I am closer to the Truth than to hold on to a false view. If you take the challenge in all honesty and you are still right, then you have still gained more knowledge just by searching.
So, I took the challenges laid down in the thread in all honesty, because every GREAT once in awhile, someone sees that as validation for their being mistaken… to see someone else willing to be honest. shrugs Regardless, I do not walk away having lost anything, but rather having gained more knowledge of the Scriptures and of Him.
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swariffin
Guest
If you follow the teaching of Jesus, you can still get into heaven, without having to see a man being nailed to the cross.Exact same view I have of Jesus!
Edited to add: though I do not say there IS a Jesus! More that I think there is relevance in the story of Jesus.
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swariffin
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Sure, Mary is not a “He”.I know. But even if it weren’t, it still **could not **be Mary because it says “he”.
It was just a quick way to prove my point. Not a doubt as to whom the disciple is.
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Ginger2
Guest
How are you a better person if Lazarus is the one whom Jesus loved?
How are you lacking spiritually if you never know for certain? Does it effect your ability to love God? do good to others? Does your very salvation depend on knowing for certain who this disciple is?
If you never know for certain can you never know God?
But if you do know for certain, maybe you will spend more time seeking knowledge of this man then you will spend seeking knowledge of Jesus. Maybe you will begin to think you can know God though knowing more about this man.
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:6,8)
"Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.” (Matthew 16:16-17)
You cannot learn more about God by learning about any man, except Jesus.
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swariffin
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I regret that a Christian exposing the idea of Jesus marrying the Church to 7th century kind of logic of Muhammad. No wonder Paar get this opinion. I don’t blame Paar for his opinion, anyway.
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planten
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**LilyM, please note the difference in time between the adoration of the shepherd and the Magi (i.e. when Jesus was few days old.) And the words of Thomas (doubting) at the jesus age of 33 years. There is a large gap of almost 33 years. What happened in between that time? There is no record of Jesus life until he was 30 years old. Was Jesus also God in those years too?
Was that record made to disappear on purpose? Surely Jesus was living in the same country (except first 12 years in Egypt). People should have known all his history. But there is nothing much there. Could you help us in understanding this problem?**
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swariffin
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So you like the Idea of Jesus carrying a banner saying “Hey I am God, you shall worship me”?
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swariffin
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Why don’t you say the shepherd has gone to India?
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Ben_Masada
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swariffin
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Whatever Jesus did below the age of 30, would not be considered as a serios business by the Jews. So, teaching people at the age below 30 would not be effective, as Jesus would automatically be disregarded. You must be at least 30 to be considered as a mature adult. Go ahead and ask Ben about this, as long as you don’t ask Ben on whether Isaac or Ishmael who was being sacrificed by Abraham, you will be OK.
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Ginger2
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Apparently everyone has forgotten about Luke 2:
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and when he was twelve years old, they went up according to festival custom.
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After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions,
47
and all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers.
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