The Wedding of Jesus

[benedictgal]

Ascending to his mother’s request! What was his mother’s request, to turn water into wine? What did she know if that was Jesus’ first miracle? Nice try my friend.

Where is it written that Mary was invited? The text says that “The mother of Jesus was there.” The disciples yes, were invited. Jesus was called when the time came to take the Bride. The author of this gospel had too poor a knowledge of Jewish wedding. Besides, he wrote about it 60+ years after the fact.

Jesus and the Bridegroom are one and the same
person.

Ben:

You have your facts wrong, again. Jesus granted his mother’s request. If you look at St. Luke’s account, when the child Jesus is in the Temple and his mother finds him there, she asks young Jesus what he is doing. He told her that He is in His Father’s house, at His Father’s business. Nonetheless, he goes back home to Nazareth with Him and submits Himself to her authority. Mary pretty much tells him that the age of 12 is not the time to start his salviffic ministry.

Now, let’s fast-foward it 18 years. Jesus is now 30. St. Joseph has already died. Jesus and Mary (along with the apostles, at least the ones selected by then) are in Cana attending a wedding. Mary sees that there is a need. She tells Jesus they have no wine. Mary knew the Hebrew scriptures fairly well. Furtthermore, she also knew that her Son was also the Divine Son of God. She knew that the prophets had written that when the Messiah comes, rivers of the wine of gladness would flow. Thus, Jesus not only turns water into wine, but, he begins to fulfill the Messianic prophecies about himself.

He also foreshadows what will happen at the Last Supper, when He will consecrate the wine into the Blood, His Blood, of the new and everlasting covenant.

I never said that the Blessed Mother would tell Jesus to turn the wine into His Blood. Once agian, please stop misrepresenting what I have posted. With all due respect, that is very dishonest of you and not at all appreciated. If you want to have a frank and mature discussion, that is fine. But, do so honestly.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, it is a pity that I’m not so familiar with OT to list Jewish prophets who were not married. But I do happen to know that there were more than one. Even if celibacy was not normal for the priesthood, it was not unknown among some prophets

Doesn’t it take two to get married? So if a Jew chooses to get married to a non-Jew how does it deplete Judaism of Jews? Don’t you have more Jews added to your ranks? All the Jews of different races in the world convinces me that Jews intermarried and there were conversions into Judaism. Liberal Jews in the US see intermarriage as a positive thing when there is conversion to Judaism as a result. Do you really believe that the 12 original tribes of Israel could have multiplied into so many Jews from so many nations and races without intermarriage?

Jesus Christ had 12 disciples. Apostle Peter was their chosen leader because Jesus appointed him. All of them went about preaching and converting. Paul was extra. Btw, Christianity came to my Hindu ancestors via Apostle Thomas. Some Jews lived in Kerala, India at the time and he is said to have come to Jews first and then to convert the Gentiles.

There must have been something special about the sect Jesus formed that it spread so far and wide and has become a world religion and lasted 2000 years. Why not rejoice about it as many Jewish Rabbis are doing?

According to Judaism, Jewishness is transmitted only through the mother. According to the statistics more Jewish males marry out of the faith than females. It means that their children are born non-Jewish. And with Jewish females marrying out, their children get lost in the Gentile pool in the long run because there is no interest to keep Jewishness.

Regarding Jews in kerala, India yes, the Apostle Thomas must have taken the teachings of Jesus to them but as a Nazarene that he was. But then later Christianity took over and the pure teaching of Jesus through the Nazarene Thomas got lost for the gospel of Paul.

Ben:

 

[benedictgal]

The Talmud endorses marriage and views celibacy negatively. negatively (TB 29 b; TB Yev. 62b, 63a. I can’t recall if any of the prophets were unmarried. I know Hosea didn’t marry wisely.

It wasn’t that Hosea married unwisely. God told him to marry Gomer because this would prove to be an oracle. Just as Hosea had to deal with an unfaithful wife and had to take her back over and over again, God had to deal with unfaithful Israel and take his people back over and over again.

 

[S_J_Thaikattil]

The Talmud endorses marriage and views celibacy negatively. negatively (TB 29 b; TB Yev. 62b, 63a. I can’t recall if any of the prophets were unmarried. I know Hosea didn’t marry wisely.

Talmund is a commentary of the OT. Please quote the OT.

Prophets Jeremiah and Eliah were celibate, as blogger inJESUS posted.

 

[S_J_Thaikattil]

According to Judaism, Jewishness is transmitted only through the mother. According to the statistics more Jewish males marry out of the faith than females. It means that their children are born non-Jewish. And with Jewish females marrying out, their children get lost in the Gentile pool in the long run because there is no interest to keep Jewishness.

Regarding Jews in kerala, India yes, the Apostle Thomas must have taken the teachings of Jesus to them but as a Nazarene that he was. But then later Christianity took over and the pure teaching of Jesus through the Nazarene Thomas got lost for the gospel of Paul.

Ben:

Paul was a Jew. Paul knew Jewish Scripture well enough. He had spent time with Apostle Peter in Jerusalem. Why all this fuss about Paul?

Why are only fathers listed in the geneology of the OT and NT?

How do you account for the Jews of many nations and races? Real Jews of Israel were after all from the Middle East. And yet there are black African Jews, white European Jews, olive skinned Middle Eastern Jews and even brown skinned Indian Jews…How could that have happened without intermarriage and conversion into Judaism?

 

[Valke2]

Abraham: Married
Jacob: Married
Isaac: Married
Moses: Married
Aaron: Married
Joshua: Married (to Rahab)
Pinchas: Married (to a midianite)
Elkanah: Married

More later

 

[adrift]

You must have talked with “Jews-for-Jesus” or “Messianic Jews.” Hyphenated Jews are no longer Jews.

Ben:

No they are not any group you mention. They are Orthodox Jews. Interestingly, but predictable you ignore the rest of the post. You made a despicable accusation which you cannot substantiate. You then answer me with speculation. You have made so many strange assertions. Just because you say so doesn’t make it fact. Just because you say it is Jewish doesn’t make it so. You are not credible.

 

[Ben_Masada]

You have your facts wrong, again. Jesus granted his mother’s request. If you look at St. Luke’s account, when the child Jesus is in the Temple and his mother finds him there, she asks young Jesus what he is doing. He told her that He is in His Father’s house, at His Father’s business. Nonetheless, he goes back home to Nazareth with Him and submits Himself to her authority. Mary pretty much tells him that the age of 12 is not the time to start his salviffic ministry.

And I asked what was his mother’s request and you don’t know how to answer. Do you know why? Because she didn’t request anything. She reported to him that the wine had run out. That’s all. I think you are the one being dishonest here and not myself.

Now, let’s fast-foward it 18 years. Jesus is now 30. St. Joseph has already died. Jesus and Mary (along with the apostles, at least the ones selected by then) are in Cana attending a wedding. Mary sees that there is a need. She tells Jesus they have no wine. Mary knew the Hebrew scriptures fairly well. Furtthermore, she also knew that her Son was also the Divine Son of God. She knew that the prophets had written that when the Messiah comes, rivers of the wine of gladness would flow. Thus, Jesus not only turns water into wine, but, he begins to fulfill the Messianic prophecies about himself.

Now, you have decided to return to Greek Mythology and to insist that there is a place for it in Judaism. Why are you so hard to get the truth that there is no such a thing as God having a son with a human being? Jesus was born
Jewish and not Greek.

He also foreshadows what will happen at the Last Supper, when He will consecrate the wine into the Blood, His Blood, of the new and everlasting covenant.

That’s Pauline rhetoric from his Christology.

I never said that the Blessed Mother would tell Jesus to turn the wine into His Blood.

And who said that, me? Why are you inventing things without sense? Produce the post that I said Mary had requested Jesus to turn wine into his blood. Do you see how dishonest you can be to invent this nonsense?

Ben:

 

[benedictgal]

This is what you said:

Originally Posted by Ben Masada
Ascending to his mother’s request! What was his mother’s request, to turn water into wine? What did she know if that was Jesus’ first miracle? Nice try my friend.

She knew that it would be His first miracle because she also knew that he would not deny her anything.

I would suggest that you go back and read the Messainic prophecies. You will find that Jesus fulfilled each and everyone of them. Furthermore, God the Father called Ancient Israel his bride, so to speak. Remember that He said that he would speak tenderly to her. Jesus is the Bridegroom of the Church, not of a human woman.

As for the issue of Pauline invention, once again, you hae it wrong. Just as the lamb sacrificed at Passover pointed to Jesus, the miracles of turning water into wine and feeding the multitudes pointed to what Jesus would do at the Last Supper.

By the way, I know my Greek mythology fairly well having taken several semesters of it at UT. They do not equate at all with what Scripture says.

I would, respectfully, suggest that rather than come out with outlandish claims that stem more from Simka Jacobovich and Dan Brown, you should read Scripture and the Church’s interpretation of it. The Church interprets through Divine Revelation, not through TV shows and fiction.

 

[paarsurrey]

Regarding Jews in kerala, India yes, the Apostle Thomas must have taken the teachings of Jesus to them but as a Nazarene that he was. But then later Christianity took over and the pure teaching of Jesus through the Nazarene Thomas got lost for the gospel of Paul.

Ben:

Hi friend Ben

I think you live in Jerusalem, there might be some Jews immigrants from Kerala, India, living there.

I wonder how did the Jews of Kerala leave YHWH for Pauline Trinity. What is the real story behind? Maybe someone from them could tell it.

I understand there are many Jewish Christians, converts from Judaism.

Please don’t mind; I want to know only for my information, no compulsion.

Thanks

 

[Ben_Masada]

This is what you said:

She knew that it would be His first miracle because she also knew that he would not deny her anything.

Believe me I am aware of them all. I want you to mention whatever you think it was a prophecy that Jesus fulfilled and we will be in business. But I warn you, no assumptions.

As for the issue of Pauline invention, once again, you hae it wrong. Just as the lamb sacrificed at Passover pointed to Jesus, the miracles of turning water into wine and feeding the multitudes pointed to what Jesus would do at the Last Supper.

Pure assumptions. You are copying the assumptions of Paul, who fabricated a whole Christology on that stuf.

By the way, I know my Greek mythology fairly well having taken several semesters of it at UT. They do not equate at all with what Scripture says.

If you really know what is Greek Mythology, leave Judaism out of it. Jesus was Jewish and not even a Hellenistic Greek Jew that Paul was. That’s why he invented his Christology.

I would, respectfully, suggest that rather than come out with outlandish claims that stem more from Simka Jacobovich and Dan Brown, you should read Scripture and the Church’s interpretation of it. The Church interprets through Divine Revelation, not through TV shows and fiction.

Sorry my friend, but I have a mind of my own, and I am perfectly able to think for myself. I am not a hair tick to go by the head of other people.

Ben:

 

[Catholic90]

It is always amusing to watch Ben and Paars try to justify things…

Neither one seems to present valid points, but it IS entertaining.

 

[benedictgal]

Believe me I am aware of them all. I want you to mention whatever you think it was a prophecy that Jesus fulfilled and we will be in business. But I warn you, no assumptions.

Pure assumptions. You are copying the assumptions of Paul, who fabricated a whole Christology on that stuf.

If you really know what is Greek Mythology, leave Judaism out of it. Jesus was Jewish and not even a Hellenistic Greek Jew that Paul was. That’s why he invented his Christology.

Sorry my friend, but I have a mind of my own, and I am perfectly able to think for myself. I am not a hair tick to go by the head of other people.

Ben:

These are not assumptions, but fact, pure and simple. Again, I challenge you to read the Old Testament. The intended sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham foreshadows the actual sacrifice of Jesus, the eternal Son of the Living God. The sacrifice of the lamb at Passover prefigures and anticipates the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Paul received what he preached from Jesus. He notes that in his first letter to the Corinthians.

Please do not compare Jesus with Greek Mythology.

 

[Valke2]

These are not assumptions, but fact, pure and simple. Again, I challenge you to read the Old Testament. The intended sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham foreshadows the actual sacrifice of Jesus, the eternal Son of the Living God

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi

I think that makes him only a free man or a Messenger of God Allah YHWH; they all submit to the will of God submissively, for being an independent god one does not submit to anyone. To submit to anyother’s will is a defect for god, in my opinion.

Kindly express yourself with clarity and without any ambiguity, quoting from the scriptures both for the claim as well as for a reason/argument.

Your scriptures are supposed to be smarter than you, in my opinion.

I think you agree.

I love Jesus

Thanks

Gee…did I fail to quote scriptures? See post #106.

 

[LilyM]

Paul was a Jew. Paul knew Jewish Scripture well enough. He had spent time with Apostle Peter in Jerusalem. Why all this fuss about Paul?

Ben, you’re ignoring the fact that Paul for all of his youth (certainly into his 20s - he was old enough to be of some import among the Jews) WAS the most orthodox of orthodox Jews - to the point of making a career out of denouncing Christians.

Clearly if marriage was a command binding on all young Jewish men, since Paul WAS a young Jewish man, PAUL WOULD HAVE BEEN MARRIED BEFORE HE BECAME CHRISTIAN.

Yet he praises celibacy in the fulsome way that only celibates can. He calls marriage a distraction, something which divides a married person’s attention and prevents them from properly serving God.

Remember that during his time as a Christian he dwelt among the Apostles and other Christians who themselves had been observant Jews, and probably most of them married, living out your supposed commandment.

In such an environment, with such an abundance of married Christian rolemodels, Paul would NOT in a short time have gone from seeing marriage as a commandment to a very second-rate good. It is clear that his opinions on marriage had long been fixed - long enough that he himself had never married. Even WHILE being an observant ultra-orthodox Jew.

 

[Randy_Carson]

BEN MASADA-

Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.”

The gospel also says, “Jesus and his disciples were also invited/called.”

You have not provided a satisfactory response to either of these verses.

I also asked what book you are getting all this nonsense from. You have not answered.

Jesus, a Jewish man, claimed to be God. Other Jewish men believed Him, and died as martyrs rather than deny this belief.

We’re **STILL **waiting for your responses…now that your “Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene at Cana” nonsense has been debunked, perhaps you can deal them.

Thanks.

 

[Valke2]

Ben, you’re ignoring the fact that Paul for all of his youth (certainly into his 20s - he was old enough to be of some import among the Jews) WAS the most orthodox of orthodox Jews - to the point of making a career out of denouncing Christians.

Clearly if marriage was a command binding on all young Jewish men, since Paul WAS a young Jewish man, PAUL WOULD HAVE BEEN MARRIED BEFORE HE BECAME CHRISTIAN.

Yet he praises celibacy in the fulsome way that only celibates can. He calls marriage a distraction, something which divides a married person’s attention and prevents them from properly serving God.

Remember that during his time as a Christian he dwelt among the Apostles and other Christians who themselves had been observant Jews, and probably most of them married, living out your supposed commandment.

In such an environment, with such an abundance of married Christian rolemodels, Paul would NOT in a short time have gone from seeing marriage as a commandment to a very second-rate good. It is clear that his opinions on marriage had long been fixed - long enough that he himself had never married. Even WHILE being an observant ultra-orthodox Jew.

I would dispute Paul’s backgound. There’s some indication that he was not exactly the most learned of Jews and I had discussed this at length in an older thread. Having said that, I’m sure he knew enough to recognize the importance of marriage in the Jewish community.

 

[LilyM]

I would dispute Paul’s backgound. There’s some indication that he was not exactly the most learned of Jews and I had discussed this at length in an older thread. Having said that, I’m sure he knew enough to recognize the importance of marriage in the Jewish community.

His learnedness may be in dispute - his enthusiasm doesn’t seem to be

And, as you’ve said, the point is still made.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Ascending to his mother’s request! What was his mother’s request, to turn water into wine? What did she know if that was Jesus’ first miracle? Nice try my friend.

Douay-Rheims footnote for John 2:4
*“What is that to me”… These words of our Saviour, spoken to his mother, have been understood by some commentators as harsh, they not considering the next following verse: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye, which plainly shows that his mother knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request he wrought it; besides the manner of speaking the words as to the tone, and the countenance shown at the same time, which could only be known to those who were present, or from what had followed: for words indicating anger in one tone of voice, would be understood quite the reverse in another. *

Where is it written that Mary was invited? The text says that “The mother of Jesus was there.” The disciples yes, were invited. Jesus was called when the time came to take the Bride. The author of this gospel had too poor a knowledge of Jewish wedding. Besides, he wrote about it 60+ years after the fact.

Jesus and the Bridegroom are one and the same person.

John 2, 1-2
And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage.

If it was Jesus marriage, wouldn’t the author have said “the marriage of Jesus”?
Again- your interpretation of “called” does not work here.