Their Hollow Inheritance

[Freshman88]

My point was that both Christians and Muslims historically have been so envious of the Jewish people because we were given the status by God of the chosen people, that they have tried desperately to steal it for themselves.

Your assertion that it was out of envy is baseless. Our religion grew out of Judaism, the Jews who were the first Christians continued to believe that they were Israel. It has no origin in “envy”.

This is because Christians and Muslims do not truly understand what it MEANS to be the am segulah (chosen people.)

On the contrary, I don’t think you understand why we call ourselves “am segulah”.

It does NOT mean we are better than nonJews. It means we were given a very sacred, yet terrifying mission, one that for the most part (apart from the very Orthodox), we have failed to live up to, hence the punishments throughout our history.

Well I disagree that that is indeed the reason for any divine punishment, if there has been any such punishment.

In any case, I do not subscribe to the scandal of particularity, and I have not suggested that it is because you believe you are “better” much in the same manner that I do not feel that I am “superior” because I have been baptized and have received the Good News.

 

[Freshman88]

I missed this part of your post.

As for the idea that Jesus was sent by God to die as a sacrifice for sin (chas ve’sholom), that is easily shown to be false by the story of Abraham and Isaac.

God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a sin offering. At the very last moment, He sent an angel to stop him, informing him that it was only a TEST.

And to further drive home the point that God does NOT require human sacrifice, Abraham was told to take the ram caught in the nearby thicket and sacrifice that INSTEAD.

The sacrifice of Christ cannot be compared to the story of Abraham and Isaac because Issac was not God.

The idea of a god dying for the sins of humans, or a god becoming human (and vice versa) comes from ancient paganism. When Paul saw that the Jews for the most part were having no part of his new religion, he took it to the pagan Gentiles, recognizing that they would be more likely to accept his new religion since it bore such similarity to what they were familiar with.

The pagans had myths that told of a god being human. This is true. How do you make the arguement that Christ received this teaching from pagans. It cannot be proven, but merely suggested. The early Christians who lived in a very pagan world know this connection, and many pagans attacked the Christians for this. The early Christians in response were quick to point the differences between Christ and a pagan-human god, but also suggested that these were distorted truths that the pagans perceived. In any case, you have proven nothing but merely suggested a connection.

Your accusation that Paul simply tuned to the pagans because it was more successful is baseless. The non-Paul writings of the New Testament and the Gospels themselves provide plenty of evidence that Christianity was an evangelical religion. There is also evidence for this when the Old Testament describes the Israel of the Old testament as being an example. The example failed/succeeded (depends on the perspective) and so Christ came.

The parable of the wedding feast is an excellent example of what is meant by Israel being an example and is also proof that Paul did not come up with the evangelical aspect of Christianity.

 

[Swan]

Interesting. It is now considered un-Christian to attempt to do what Jesus sent the apostles to do - convert the Jews?

In Novusordoville, the very mission of the Church is now considered “un-Christian”.

This is from 8/1/2002 - link provided below:

***U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops: Don’t evangelize Jews
**The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement Monday saying that Catholics should evangelize non-Christians—but not Jews. “The command of the Resurrected Jesus in Matthew 28:19 to make disciples ‘of all nations’ means that the Church must bear witness in the world to the Good News of Christ so as to prepare the world for the fullness of the kingdom of God,” says Reflections on Covenant and Mission.

However, this evangelizing task no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history. Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God. The Catholic Church must always evangelize and will always witness to its faith in the presence of God’s kingdom in Jesus Christ to Jews and to all other people.***
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/augustweb-only/8-12-32.0.html

 

[Freshman88]

This is from 8/1/2002 - link provided below:

****U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops: Don’t evangelize Jews
**The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement Monday saying that Catholics should evangelize non-Christians—but not Jews. “The command of the Resurrected Jesus in Matthew 28:19 to make disciples ‘of all nations’ means that the Church must bear witness in the world to the Good News of Christ so as to prepare the world for the fullness of the kingdom of God,” says Reflections on Covenant and Mission.

However, this evangelizing task no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history. Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God. The Catholic Church must always evangelize and will always witness to its faith in the presence of God’s kingdom in Jesus Christ to Jews and to all other people.**
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/augustweb-only/8-12-32.0.html

Good thing I’m not in the states.

In any case, I respectfully disagree with this board and instead side with tradition.

Do you think you can provide the exact statement? Given the media’s poor record with respect to the Catholic faith I do not trust the article.

 

[Dauphin]

This is from 8/1/2002 - link provided below:

U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops: Don’t evangelize Jews
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement Monday saying that Catholics should evangelize non-Christians—but not Jews. “The command of the Resurrected Jesus in Matthew 28:19 to make disciples ‘of all nations’ means that the Church must bear witness in the world to the Good News of Christ so as to prepare the world for the fullness of the kingdom of God,” says Reflections on Covenant and Mission.

However, this evangelizing task no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history. Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God. The Catholic Church must always evangelize and will always witness to its faith in the presence of God’s kingdom in Jesus Christ to Jews and to all other people.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/augustweb-only/8-12-32.0.html

That document has absolutely no doctrinal force. It is a seriously misguided and borderline-heretical teaching. It has been condemned quite thoroughly by many Catholics who realize the Church has no authority to cease its evangelizing mission to the Jews.

It’s on the same level as the Winnipeg Declaration, in which the Canadian Bishops said it’s ok to use artificial contraception, no matter what Humane Vitae says. It’s an apalling scandal and a repudiation of the Catholic faith. It’s true evidence of the rot in the Church.

 

[jeanannemarie]

It seems to me that if there is a special place for the Jews, as in God’s chosen people, whatever that may be or mean, it would ONLY apply to the actual group of people and their descendants, not converts. The original Jewish people and their line may actually have some special favor with God in my opinion, but not new converts to the old beliefs. To me it would seem as if the old beliefs were a “closed thread” after Christ came, except for those who were in the direct line. Does that make any sense to anyone else? I just don’t see how outsiders can arbitrarily decide to claim the heritage of the Jews. Are we hearing from anyone here who is a Jew by heritage?

 

[CarolsDaughter]

This is from 8/1/2002 - link provided below:

****U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops: Don’t evangelize Jews
**The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement Monday saying that Catholics should evangelize non-Christians—but not Jews. “The command of the Resurrected Jesus in Matthew 28:19 to make disciples ‘of all nations’ means that the Church must bear witness in the world to the Good News of Christ so as to prepare the world for the fullness of the kingdom of God,” says Reflections on Covenant and Mission.

However, this evangelizing task no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history. Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God. The Catholic Church must always evangelize and will always witness to its faith in the presence of God’s kingdom in Jesus Christ to Jews and to all other people.**
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/augustweb-only/8-12-32.0.html

This is going to sound unusual, but I have always admired the esthetics of the pre-Vatican 2 church…the Tridentine High Mass in Latin, the incense, the Gregorian chant, and the like. As a classical music aficionado and lover of all that is beautiful, I have always admired what the modern Catholic church threw onto the dustheap.

But what you quote above is one thing I DO admire about the modern Catholic church…what a shame they couldn’t toss the antisemitism out and keep the beautiful aspects of Catholicism!

 

[Freshman88]

But what you quote above is one thing I DO admire about the modern Catholic church…what a shame they couldn’t toss the antisemitism out and keep the beautiful aspects of Catholicism!

I love how the charge of antisemitism is thrown around so easily these days.

That Christ wanted us to convert all nations is not antisemitic.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I love how the charge of antisemitism is thrown around so easily these days.

That Christ wanted us to convert all nations is not antisemitic.

Freshman, you have been taking the words out of my mouth all day.

The true antisemitism is what is written in Swan’s post. How much hatred must those Bishops have for the Jews in not wanting them to be saved. Where is their charity in wanting the Jews to come to a knowledge of their long awaited Messiah.

How can such a lack of charity on the part of these Bishops be explained? The explanation is probably pretty simple: A loss of faith.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

My people have had MANY punishments over time, dating back to pre-Christian days.

True, but none that have lasted nearly this long. The Jews must have done something very bad to deserve this one.

The fact that the Jewish people remains, 3500 years later, after many other ancient peoples were wiped out (some with more members than we had), is proof of the existence of God, and that His Covenant with us will never be eliminated.

You may be surprised to hear this from me, but I believe the punishment of the Jews is just about over.

The Jews are being punished because they killed their Messiah. However, what the Jews did 2000 years ago (denying Christ) is what the Gentiles are doing today. The parallels are striking, but I won’t go into them.

I personally suspect that “the time of the Gentiles” is just about over, and God will again return to his chosen race. Just as the apostasy of the Jews opened the door for the conversion of the Gentiles (Romans 11), so too I believe the apostasy of the Gentiles, which is taking place today, will turn God back to the Jews.

The veil will be taken away, which will then result in a mass conversion of the Jews to Christianity. I believe this has already begun, as there are more Jewish converts now, than at any time in history. In my opinion, this conversion of the Jews will have the effect of bringing the luke-warm and virtually apostate Gentiles back to the faith as well.

It may well be that the Jews then take over a leadership position in the Church, which I personally would very happy about, since the Jews, who are the chosen people “according to the flesh” have many natural qualities that would make the very good leaders of the Church.

Time will tell how this all plays out, but I think it has already begun.

 

[Walking_Home]

This woman is correct. Those of you who want to convert the Jews need to chill out. Talk about un-Christian! I can’t believe these remarks were even posted. No one, inlcuding you who are so eager to cast stones, likes to have their faith attacked. Show others the same respect you expect. And, as far as I am aware it is the teaching of the RC that the Jews are not to be “converted”, buta re to be left alone.

No one likes to have their faith attacked.

---

Your profile says Christian–yet you don’t seem to be speaking Christian. The non-Catholic Christian denominations I am familiar with–are for converting non–believers to Christ.

 

[Kaninchen]

Now we’re beginning to get into a pissing match.

That’s one match you’re (physiologically) going to win.

I’m currently working on my undergrad at a prominent secular university

Study at 4 more and you’ll break even (or, in other words, academic bragging seldom works and is unworthy of a scholar).

In any case, if the Jews did suffer more, that does not change the fact the Christians also suffered brutally at the hands of the Romans on several occasions. If it pleases you that I say that the Jews suffered more, so be it*, it does not change the fact that despite facing persecution we overcame our persecutors and even converted them.

Actually, all I’ve been doing is dealing with a context problem. The rest is all of your creation.

 

[Swan]

---

Your profile says Christian–yet you don’t seem to be speaking Christian. The non-Catholic Christian denominations I am familiar with–are for converting non–believers to Christ.

Having recently left the Catholic Church I am not yet “anything” if you are looking for a denomination name. I am, however, investigating the Society of Friends/Quakers. I believe there are many paths to the truth and that God leads us each on our own path, therefore, I do not try to convert people.

Peace.

 

[Swan]

Freshman, you have been taking the words out of my mouth all day.

The true antisemitism is what is written in Swan’s post. How much hatred must those Bishops have for the Jews in not wanting them to be saved. Where is their charity in wanting the Jews to come to a knowledge of their long awaited Messiah.

How can such a lack of charity on the part of these Bishops be explained? The explanation is probably pretty simple: A loss of faith.

Are the Bishops not abiding by doctrine? If they are, then is this not a teaching of the church?

 

[Swan]

That document has absolutely no doctrinal force. It is a seriously misguided and borderline-heretical teaching. It has been condemned quite thoroughly by many Catholics who realize the Church has no authority to cease its evangelizing mission to the Jews.

It’s on the same level as the Winnipeg Declaration, in which the Canadian Bishops said it’s ok to use artificial contraception, no matter what Humane Vitae says. It’s an apalling scandal and a repudiation of the Catholic faith. It’s true evidence of the rot in the Church.

Can you provide a direct quote from the Vatican/CCC to back up the above statement?

 

[Dauphin]

Can you provide a direct quote from the Vatican/CCC to back up the above statement?

I don’t think the Vatican has condemned the statement formally. The infallible definitions of Councils and Popes should be enough to make it clear that it contradicts Catholic doctrine.

The Sinai covenant has ceased; adherence to it is not salvific. In charity, we attempt to convince Jews to accept the new and everlasting covenant so that they may be saved.

 

[Dauphin]

Are the Bishops not abiding by doctrine? If they are, then is this not a teaching of the church?

Clearly, where Bishops contradict Catholic doctrine, they are not abiding by it. Whoever authored the “reflections on covenant and mission” document is a material heretic.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Are the Bishops not abiding by doctrine? If they are, then is this not a teaching of the church?

No, they are not abiding by doctrine. When that document came out it created a huge controversy, since it is clearly heretical. If I am not mistaken, it has been removed from the USCCB website.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

True, but none that have lasted nearly this long. The Jews must have done something very bad to deserve this one.

You may be surprised to hear this from me, but I believe the punishment of the Jews is just about over.

The Jews are being punished because they killed their Messiah. However, what the Jews did 2000 years ago (denying Christ) is what the Gentiles are doing today. The parallels are striking, but I won’t go into them.

I personally suspect that “the time of the Gentiles” is just about over, and God will again return to his chosen race. Just as the apostasy of the Jews opened the door for the conversion of the Gentiles (Romans 11), so too I believe the apostasy of the Gentiles, which is taking place today, will turn God back to the Jews.

The veil will be taken away, which will then result in a mass conversion of the Jews to Christianity. I believe this has already begun, as there are more Jewish converts now, than at any time in history. In my opinion, this conversion of the Jews will have the effect of bringing the luke-warm and virtually apostate Gentiles back to the faith as well.

It may well be that the Jews then take over a leadership position in the Church, which I personally would very happy about, since the Jews, who are the chosen people “according to the flesh” have many natural qualities that would make the very good leaders of the Church.

Time will tell how this all plays out, but I think it has already begun.

The Jews killed their Messiah"? I thought your church stopped teaching that Jews are collectively guilty of deicide?

Or did that not trickle down to you?

This is REALLY starting to remind me of the day in 1970 when Catholic schools girls beat the **** out of me for being a “christ killer”. They repeated, several times as theyr smashed my face into the brick wall of Oteri’s Bakery, “YOU killed OUR LORD!”

Nice people. Seems they are all grown up now and hanging out HERE.

Never would I want to be a Christian. But even if I did, the Catholic church would be the absolute LAST one I’d consider. becaus experience is the best teacher.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

True, but none that have lasted nearly this long. The Jews must have done something very bad to deserve this one.

You may be surprised to hear this from me, but I believe the punishment of the Jews is just about over.

The Jews are being punished because they killed their Messiah. However, what the Jews did 2000 years ago (denying Christ) is what the Gentiles are doing today. The parallels are striking, but I won’t go into them.

I personally suspect that “the time of the Gentiles” is just about over, and God will again return to his chosen race. Just as the apostasy of the Jews opened the door for the conversion of the Gentiles (Romans 11), so too I believe the apostasy of the Gentiles, which is taking place today, will turn God back to the Jews.

The veil will be taken away, which will then result in a mass conversion of the Jews to Christianity. I believe this has already begun, as there are more Jewish converts now, than at any time in history. In my opinion, this conversion of the Jews will have the effect of bringing the luke-warm and virtually apostate Gentiles back to the faith as well.

It may well be that the Jews then take over a leadership position in the Church, which I personally would very happy about, since the Jews, who are the chosen people “according to the flesh” have many natural qualities that would make the very good leaders of the Church.

Time will tell how this all plays out, but I think it has already begun.

The Jews killed their Messiah"? I thought your church stopped teaching that Jews are collectively guilty of deicide?

Or did that not trickle down to you?

This is REALLY starting to remind me of the day in 1970 when Catholic schools girls beat the heck out of me for being a “christ killer”. They repeated, several times as theyr smashed my face into the brick wall of Oteri’s Bakery, “YOU killed OUR LORD!”

Nice people. Seems they are all grown up now and hanging out HERE.

Never would I want to be a Christian. But even if I did, the Catholic church would be the absolute LAST church I’d consider. Because experience is the best teacher.