Theistic evolutionism and Scripture

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cassini said:
Orogeny, I thought I answered these questions. As a Catholic I cannot say a pope is a heretic, I think that is only for a future pope to say, or a council or God himself. I am not a sedevacantist but i can understand what drove such Catholics to resort to this state. It is the Devil, and modernism, with modern popes contradicting past popes because of what they perceive science tells them. The whole thing is a mess. Look at us fighting each other. That did NOT happen before the first attack on scripture WITHIN the Church, the heliocentric heresy (see thread the earth at the centre of the universe. Then add the uniformitarian theory and evolutionism and the Bible is made look like a book of fairy tales. God why can’t you see the Devil and his scientific interpretations are behind it all.
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You have made it clear that you believe that a Catholic MUST 1) be a geocentrist and 2) be a literalist. The Pope clearly isn’t the second and I strongly suspect he isn’t a geocentrist. If those are heresies, as you have stated over and over and over, isn’t a person in the position of pope a heretic if he teaches that geocentrism isn’t true and/or evolution is true (even if it is divinely guided)?

Now, I want you to focus on that question. Based on your answer, is the Pope, according to rock solid Church teaching, a heretic?

Peace

Tim
 
bigred84 said:
I saw somewhere on this threat the claim that the church fathers had always favored the literal intepretation of Genesis for the first 1900 years of the church. That is simply not true. Around the year 400 AD, St. Augustine got into a dispute with the Manicheans(of which he was a former member) about the interpretation of Genesis. In his writings, he came to the conclusion that it made Christians look foolish to try to literally interpret Genesis as a scientific text. His teaching is essentially the same one the Church has now. He is the earliest theologian with this view I can recall , but I believe some had come to the same conclusion even earlier.
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Bull. Poor St Augustine, he is reputed to have sanctioned everything, including a heliocentric reading of the scriptures. The only place - I know of - where St Augustine differed from all the Fathers is that he thought the Creation happened ALL at once and was put in order over SIX days. The Fathers believed the creation fiat happened over six days, God creating different things each day. None therefore, were uniformitarians or evolutionists.
Indeed the creative fiat DEMANDS that the creature is created whole and full according to its nature. Evolutionism perverts this theology.
 
buffalo said:
Jurassic treasure trove lost by Victorians found by Phil Wilby, fossil sleuth

…Phil Wilby, of the British Geological Survey, has now rediscovered the site and led the first dig there in more than 150 years. He hopes that freshly recovered fossils can help to explain why tens of thousands of animals died simultaneously in episodes repeated many times over about a million years
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How can that be? The earth is only 8,000 years old!!😉

Besides, that is one long flood!!!

Peace

Tim
 
StAnastasia said:
Cassini, this sounds like an interesting topic to present at the Geological Society of America http://www.geosociety.org/links/. If your theory has merit, you ought to share it with professional geologists. If it does not have merit, perhaps they can offer you pointers on how to improve your hypothesis.

StAnastasia
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Hi StA, my good friend. It has been to the equivalent in France. But as in America, these academies are filled with evolutionists, they wouldn’t let a creationist in the door of such collections of objective scientists. The story arising is worthy of a book. At first there was SILENCE, no communication, no distribution among members. But the sedimentologist who found the truth about sedimentation is a millionare and distributed all his university (American) findings to insividuals, hundreds of them. One by one, they broke ranks and sought more information. The numbers are growing, but the academies are still resisting. No doubt they are all working on a ‘millions of years’ solution to sideways laying sediments.
StA, that FACT cannot be overturned, there were never layers of sediments laid down one on top of the other.
 
cassini said:
But the sedimentologist who found the truth about sedimentation is a millionare and distributed all his university (American) findings to insividuals, hundreds of them.
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Except he isn’t a sedimentologist and his testing didn’t show what he claims it did.
One by one, they broke ranks and sought more information. The numbers are growing, but the academies are still resisting.
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Interesting fact about Berthault that I bet you don’t know. Pierre Julien, the real scientist involved in the tests being discussed, disagrees with Berthault’s conclusions. Funny how that is, no?

Oh, and just so you don’t think only evolutionists under Satan’s spell disagree with Berthault, I present the following for your reading pleasure!😃

creationontheweb.com/content/view/1552

Peace

Tim
 
buffalo said:
What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence that speaks to them and that moves them to say: Yes, Father, you have willed me.
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Buffalo, a problem for this theistic anti-evolutionary view – and for theistic evolution – is whether God wills all aspects of humanity as a divine project, including the less felicitous aspects of creation. For example, does God will teratomas? http://bms.brown.edu/pedisurg/Brown/IBImages/Teratoma/SCTeratoma5.html

Or does God will parastic twins? http://www.weirdasianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/vishnu-before01.jpg

It might be useful to think of God working through a combination of chance and design, such that biologically some awful things do happen for which God bears no responsibility.

StAnastasia
 
Orogeny said:
You have made it clear that you believe that a Catholic MUST 1) be a geocentrist and 2) be a literalist. The Pope clearly isn’t the second and I strongly suspect he isn’t a geocentrist. If those are heresies, as you have stated over and over and over, isn’t a person in the position of pope a heretic if he teaches that geocentrism isn’t true and/or evolution is true (even if it is divinely guided)?

Now, I want you to focus on that question. Based on your answer, is the Pope, according to rock solid Church teaching, a heretic?

Peace

Tim
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According to the Church. which we all supposedly believe in and adhere to, every Copernican since 1616 IS a heretic. Now this is not according to the teaching of cassini, but of the Church, recorded in ten thousand books. At first the heresy was FORMAL, ipso facto excommunication. At some time catholics were led to believe science had proven the unprovable and thus became MATERIAL heretics,:
I copied this from somewhere

“Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks souls, or who disturbs the civil order, or above all, him who tries to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge him, to punish him or depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior.”7979. St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, Book II Chapter 29.

and I copied this somwhere

The problem, however, is two-fold: First, the Pope must have uttered a truly manifest heresy, which requires denial of an article of Divine and Catholic faith, such as the Trinity, not just any error against the teaching of the Church. Second, the Pope must, in uttering that heresy; actually be guilty of the personal sin of heresy in that he knowingly and pertinaciously (obstinately) denies an article of faith. One who thinks his false belief is consistent with the Catholic faith cannot be guilty of the sin of formal heresy; He is only a material heretic who remains a member of the Church.

So you are all off the hook, your only material heretics. On second thoughts though, now that you have been informed of the truth it is your duty to purge your heresy. You see now you cannot claim total ignorance of the truth. Sorry lads, but I’ll put in a good word when I get there (I hope), you never know.
 
StAnastasia said:
Buffalo, a problem for this theistic anti-evolutionary view – and for theistic evolution – is whether God wills all aspects of humanity as a divine project, including the less felicitous aspects of creation. For example, does God will teratomas? http://bms.brown.edu/pedisurg/Brown/IBImages/Teratoma/SCTeratoma5.html

Or does God will parastic twins? http://www.weirdasianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/vishnu-before01.jpg

It might be useful to think of God working through a combination of chance and design, such that biologically some awful things do happen for which God bears no responsibility.

StAnastasia
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Sorry – the links didn’t come through:

For example, does God will teratomas? bms.brown.edu/pedisurg/Brown/IBImages/Teratoma/SCTeratoma5.html

Or does God will parastic twins?

weirdasianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/vishnu-before01.jpg
 
cassini said:
So you are all off the hook, your only material heretics. On second thoughts though, now that you have been informed of the truth it is your duty to purge your heresy. You see now you cannot claim total ignorance of the truth. Sorry lads, but I’ll put in a good word when I get there (I hope), you never know.
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So are you now God, Cassini?
 
cassini said:
So you are all off the hook, your only material heretics. On second thoughts though, now that you have been informed of the truth it is your duty to purge your heresy. You see now you cannot claim total ignorance of the truth. Sorry lads, but I’ll put in a good word when I get there (I hope), you never know.
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Is the Pope a heretic?

Peace

Tim
 
Orogeny said:
Except he isn’t a sedimentologist and his testing didn’t show what he claims it did.Interesting fact about Berthault that I bet you don’t know. Pierre Julien, the real scientist involved in the tests being discussed, disagrees with Berthault’s conclusions. Funny how that is, no?

Oh, and just so you don’t think only evolutionists under Satan’s spell disagree with Berthault, I present the following for your reading pleasure!😃

creationontheweb.com/content/view/1552

Peace

Tim
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I flew through this report orogeny and I read it as acknowledging berthault’s findings but disputes this process could occur in a world wide flood.
Of course Berthault’s deluge connection would be rejected. I said that even before I read your reference. but it remains as a possibility.
Needless to say, my acceptance of a worldwide flood does not depend on berthault’s findings. The theology built up by the Fathers on the Flood is my belief source. The Church did not indulge in a theology of myth.
 
Orogeny said:
Yeah, but your source only indicated tens of thousands, not millions. You are off by a couple of significant digits.😉

Peace

Tim
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Bet they haven’t counted them all yet. there are other mass graves where the estimate there are millions all bunched together. Google in mass dinosaur graves and I’m sure you will find another source. I’ll not be looking through all 13,000 of them for you.
 
StAnastasia said:
Buffalo, a problem for this theistic anti-evolutionary view – and for theistic evolution – is whether God wills all aspects of humanity as a divine project, including the less felicitous aspects of creation. For example, does God will teratomas? http://bms.brown.edu/pedisurg/Brown/IBImages/Teratoma/SCTeratoma5.html

Or does God will parastic twins? http://www.weirdasianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/vishnu-before01.jpg

It might be useful to think of God working through a combination of chance and design, such that biologically some awful things do happen for which God bears no responsibility.

StAnastasia
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Or as more destructive mutations take place the less harmonius a place the earth is.
 
Orogeny said:
Is the Pope a heretic?

Peace

Tim
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According to the 1616 decree, if the Pope believes the sun moves and that a moving sun is compatable with the Bible and should be read as such then YES he is. Now go ask him if he believes the sun moves and that a moving sun is compatable with the Bible and should be read as such.
 
cassini said:
I flew through this report orogeny and I read it as acknowledging berthault’s findings but disputes this process could occur in a world wide flood.
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The experiments were valid experiments. His conclusions are what are flawed.
Of course Berthault’s deluge connection would be rejected. I said that even before I read your reference. but it remains as a possibility.
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Why do you say that? The source I gave you is a fundamentalist YEC site that accepts the flood story as literal history.
Needless to say, my acceptance of a worldwide flood does not depend on berthault’s findings. The theology built up by the Fathers on the Flood is my belief source. The Church did not indulge in a theology of myth.
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Good. Berthault is not a trustworthy source. You are better served leaving him out of your arguments.

Peace

Tim
 
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