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exoflare
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I probably haven’t known as many Muslims as you in the flesh, it seems… but in the flesh or online, it doesn’t matter, they both make me come to the same conclusion.
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inJESUS
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AbeOman
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Greating to all in the name of Allah, I will do what i can, but i’m a guest so I need to learn more from you as much as possible.It is good to see new membersPeace to you AbeOman:wave: . Hope you contribute to the discussion.
Thanks again.
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AbeOman
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inJESUS
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zerinus
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I think I understand what he is saying; and I am going to have to agree with him. What I believe he is saying is that the Islamic concept of “Unity” of God is such that it excludes any form of Trinity in the Deity, regardless of how that Trinity is understood in Christian theology; and I believe he is right about that. To an Islamic theologian, the Islamic concept of the “Unity” of God is so strong, so complete, so absolute, and so transcendent, that it excludes any possibility of “threeness” in it, no matter that “threeness” is understood by Christians. Your attempt at reconciling the two religions by reconciling the Christian theological concept of the Trinity with that of Islamic Unity a non-starter, because they are inherently and intrinsically irreconcilable.
And, as an LDS member, I have to say that the Islamic doctrine of Deity is more logical and makes better sense than the historical Christian one!
zerinus
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AgnosTheist
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you speak as if ‘attributes’ is completely independent from ‘nature’. isnt the former a component of the latter?
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AbeOman
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inJESUS
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I think I understand what he is saying; and I am going to have to agree with him.
what i expect is a discussion, not opinions of who is right or wrong. To say it excludes, one must give reasons why. In this way we all discuss and learn.
And, as an LDS member, I have to say that the Islamic doctrine of Deity is more logical and makes better sense than the historical Christian one!
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inJESUS
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sorry but english is my third language and i do not claim to word all my ideas correctly but am doing my best.
I think they are interchangeable.
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inJESUS
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Verisimilitude
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Two peas in a heretical pod. Birds of a feather…And, as an LDS member, I have to say that the Islamic doctrine of Deity is more logical and makes better sense than the historical Christian one!
zerinus
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zerinus
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I thought I did give a reason. The reason is that the Islamic concept of the Unity of God is so absolute and transcendent that it excludes any possibility of a “threeness” in it, no matter how that “threeness” in understood in Christian theology. That is in the nature of the theologies of the two religions. That is how Islam defines the Unity of God.
I thought I heard you say somewhere that God has given man a mind and an intelligence for a reason, and He expects him to use it.
What else do you expect? Human beings are rational creatures, and they only way that they can “discuss” something is by exercise of their reason and logical faculties.
zerinus
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inJESUS
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but i gave an Islamic teaching about the Word of God. Islam teaches the Word of God is eternal and uncreated, without jeopardizing its monotheism. It is these ideas i am interested in, not just saying absolute monotheism is what Islam teaches without further elaboration on the points i raised. In other words, here is a scenario:
Hussein: you are polytheistic. You believe in 3 gods
John : no, we believe in One God.
Hussein : how if you believe in Trinity?
John : Trinity is an explanation of the Oness of God as revealed in the Bible. Father, His Word, His Spirit. What do you believe about God’s Word?
Hussein : it is eternal and uncreated.
John : But isn’t God only He is eternal and uncreated? yet you say His word, which is not God, is equal to God in being uncreated and eternal. Is this polytheism ?
Hussein : but we don’t believe in Trinity! it is against the absolute monotheism though in Islam !
John : but hey, isn’t the Word of Allah equal to Allah in being uncreated and eternal, in other words not different from Allah yet not Allah? isn’t this your teaching? is this polytheism?
Hussein : but Trinity is against monothesim of Islam!
Hope you see the absurdity of such an attitude.
our mind and intelligence are limited. It is God who said that human wisdom is foolishness to God. So what your wisdom says is not necessarily what God says. The CROSS is foolishness to those who perish , yet many do not believe in the crucifixion so their wisdom is foolishness to God.
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zerocrossing
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The Muslims you’ve met in the flesh… are they from all walks of life? (Doctors, lawyers, engineers, gas station attendants, college students, ice cream vendors, pizza deliverymen, etc.?). And if so, you’ve seriously tried to engage them in good faith dialogue with no presuppositions going in to the discussion? (For the sake of clarity: Differences in faith are not what I mean by presuppositions).
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zerinus
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It is true that the Koran teaches that the word of God (referring to the Koran) is eternal and uncreated. The Koran also refers to Jesus as the Word of God. But I don’t think that from that you can draw the conclusion that in Islamic theology Jesus must therefore be uncreated and eternal. The two words will probably be interpreted by Islamic theologians in different ways in each context. When Jesus is referred to in the Koran (or the Bible) as being the Word of God, they probably interpret that to mean that Jesus brought the word of God to the people; not that He Himself is literally the word of God. Moslems believe that Jesus was no hither station than an ordinary prophet, like the Old Testament prophets; and that Mohamed has an even higher position, as the last prophet, to Jesus.
I think that that is an arbitrary scenario that you have created. It does not a reflection of the reality of the case when you are discussing the subject with an Islamic theologian.
Everything has its time and place. Reason and logic has its place, as well as faith and trust in God. You cannot ignore faith in God, and put all your trust in human intelligence and reason. On the other hand, you cannot accept every unreasonable thing on the basis that “human wisdom is foolishness to God” either.
zerinus
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swariffin
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Dear People,
Before we discuss further about God, are we in agreement that God is unlimited that we human cannot and will not be able to comprehend God completely? That God is infinitely powerful and absolute so that nothing is impossible to God? If you disagree, then forgive my post and please disregard it. Further discussion will be out of the topic of this thread.
If you do, then I would like to ask another question about the Trinity. With respect to whose point of view the Trinity is? God or human?
Allow me to present my view about the Trinity. Since I am a Christian, I will based by view on the Bible. As God is sooooooo powerful, his voice makes people tremble. People are afraid to hear the voice of God directly (Exodus 20:18-19). No wonder right? Sometimes we are afraid to hear the fearful sound of a thunderstorm or an exploding volcano. So, God in his love to us send his word to us, and make his word appear in the form of human being. This human being is not created by God. This human being is the Word of God that God make it appear to human as human being. Nothing is impossible to God, right? As God says something, God says it with the absolute dignity and the absolute authority. So, if the word of God has the dignity and authority of God, then the Word of God = God. This aforementioned human being as we the Christian believe, is Jesus. So, Jesus = Word of God = God.
The only and only special thing about Jesus is: (a) the Word of God if not made to appear as human is invisible and fearful, while (b) the Word of God made to appear as human is visible and friendly. In Jesus, human can have a friendly even perhaps intimate (don’t mean to come into sexuality realm) way of communication. Therefore, satan tried many times to attack the human form of Jesus. Should Jesus fell into satan’s temptation, then Jesus would no longer be the word of God, and not God. Jesus cannot be independent with respect to himself. If human can have an intimate relationship with Jesus, then human have an intimate relationshio with God.
What about the Holy Spirit. Again, as a Christian, my point of view is based on the Bible. John 15:26 mentioned the origin of the Holy Spirit as “hopara tou Patros ekporeuetai” The word ekporeuetai come from the basic form of “ekporeuomai” which means "to pr
Before we discuss further about God, are we in agreement that God is unlimited that we human cannot and will not be able to comprehend God completely? That God is infinitely powerful and absolute so that nothing is impossible to God? If you disagree, then forgive my post and please disregard it. Further discussion will be out of the topic of this thread.
If you do, then I would like to ask another question about the Trinity. With respect to whose point of view the Trinity is? God or human?
Allow me to present my view about the Trinity. Since I am a Christian, I will based by view on the Bible. As God is sooooooo powerful, his voice makes people tremble. People are afraid to hear the voice of God directly (Exodus 20:18-19). No wonder right? Sometimes we are afraid to hear the fearful sound of a thunderstorm or an exploding volcano. So, God in his love to us send his word to us, and make his word appear in the form of human being. This human being is not created by God. This human being is the Word of God that God make it appear to human as human being. Nothing is impossible to God, right? As God says something, God says it with the absolute dignity and the absolute authority. So, if the word of God has the dignity and authority of God, then the Word of God = God. This aforementioned human being as we the Christian believe, is Jesus. So, Jesus = Word of God = God.
The only and only special thing about Jesus is: (a) the Word of God if not made to appear as human is invisible and fearful, while (b) the Word of God made to appear as human is visible and friendly. In Jesus, human can have a friendly even perhaps intimate (don’t mean to come into sexuality realm) way of communication. Therefore, satan tried many times to attack the human form of Jesus. Should Jesus fell into satan’s temptation, then Jesus would no longer be the word of God, and not God. Jesus cannot be independent with respect to himself. If human can have an intimate relationship with Jesus, then human have an intimate relationshio with God.
What about the Holy Spirit. Again, as a Christian, my point of view is based on the Bible. John 15:26 mentioned the origin of the Holy Spirit as “hopara tou Patros ekporeuetai” The word ekporeuetai come from the basic form of “ekporeuomai” which means "to pr
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swariffin
Guest
Dear People,
Before we discuss further about God, are we in agreement that God is unlimited that we human cannot and will not be able to comprehend God completely? That God is infinitely powerful and absolute so that nothing is impossible to God? If you disagree, then forgive my post and please disregard it. Further discussion will be out of the topic of this thread.
If you do, then I would like to ask another question about the Trinity. With respect to whose point of view the Trinity is? God or human?
Allow me to present my view about the Trinity. Since I am a Christian, I will based by view on the Bible. As God is sooooooo powerful, his voice makes people tremble. People are afraid to hear the voice of God directly (Exodus 20:18-19). No wonder right? Sometimes we are afraid to hear the fearful sound of a thunderstorm or an exploding volcano. So, God in his love to us send his word to us, and make his word appear in the form of human being. This human being is not created by God. This human being is the Word of God that God make it appear to human as human being. Nothing is impossible to God, right? As God says something, God says it with the absolute dignity and the absolute authority. So, if the word of God has the dignity and authority of God, then the Word of God = God. This aforementioned human being as we the Christian believe, is Jesus. So, Jesus = Word of God = God.
The only and only special thing about Jesus is: (a) the Word of God if not made to appear as human is invisible and fearful, while (b) the Word of God made to appear as human is visible and friendly. In Jesus, human can have a friendly even perhaps intimate (don’t mean to come into sexuality realm) way of communication. Therefore, satan tried many times to attack the human form of Jesus. Should Jesus fell into satan’s temptation, then Jesus would no longer be the word of God, and not God. Jesus cannot be independent with respect to himself. If human can have an intimate relationship with Jesus, then human have an intimate relationshio with God.
What about the Holy Spirit. Again, as a Christian, my point of view is based on the Bible. John 15:26 mentioned the origin of the Holy Spirit as “hopara tou Patros ekporeuetai” The word ekporeuetai come from the basic form of “ekporeuomai” which means “to proceed”. The Holy Spirit proceed from God. As the Holy Spirit proceed from God, He is not created. So, the Holy Spirit proceed from God = the Spirit of God = God.
The only and only special thing about the Holy Spirit in our lifetime post to Jesus’ service, is the Holy Spirit dwell within each of any human who believe in Him. How can a human being detect the existence of Holy Spirit in another human being, is through the fruits that such a human being yield. We can see that the Holy Spirit exist within Mother Theresa, for example, because we see what Mother Theresa has done. The Holy Spirit empowered a human being named Theresa, so that Mother Theresa could do what the world has seen today. Thanks to the individual woman named Theresa that she allowed herself to be guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot independently empowered human by Himself. How can one Holy Spirit dwell within billions of human, it is within the infinite power of God. Nothing is impossible to God. God sends his own Spirit because God out of his love wants to live and present among us himself, rather than being away from us.
Back to my question above. God = Word of God = Spirit of God, that is what we believe as Trinity with respect to the point of view of human, as we perceive God as He reveals himself to us. Of course, with respect to the point of view of God, no need for God to send his Word, nor Spirit to himself.
Before we discuss further about God, are we in agreement that God is unlimited that we human cannot and will not be able to comprehend God completely? That God is infinitely powerful and absolute so that nothing is impossible to God? If you disagree, then forgive my post and please disregard it. Further discussion will be out of the topic of this thread.
If you do, then I would like to ask another question about the Trinity. With respect to whose point of view the Trinity is? God or human?
Allow me to present my view about the Trinity. Since I am a Christian, I will based by view on the Bible. As God is sooooooo powerful, his voice makes people tremble. People are afraid to hear the voice of God directly (Exodus 20:18-19). No wonder right? Sometimes we are afraid to hear the fearful sound of a thunderstorm or an exploding volcano. So, God in his love to us send his word to us, and make his word appear in the form of human being. This human being is not created by God. This human being is the Word of God that God make it appear to human as human being. Nothing is impossible to God, right? As God says something, God says it with the absolute dignity and the absolute authority. So, if the word of God has the dignity and authority of God, then the Word of God = God. This aforementioned human being as we the Christian believe, is Jesus. So, Jesus = Word of God = God.
The only and only special thing about Jesus is: (a) the Word of God if not made to appear as human is invisible and fearful, while (b) the Word of God made to appear as human is visible and friendly. In Jesus, human can have a friendly even perhaps intimate (don’t mean to come into sexuality realm) way of communication. Therefore, satan tried many times to attack the human form of Jesus. Should Jesus fell into satan’s temptation, then Jesus would no longer be the word of God, and not God. Jesus cannot be independent with respect to himself. If human can have an intimate relationship with Jesus, then human have an intimate relationshio with God.
What about the Holy Spirit. Again, as a Christian, my point of view is based on the Bible. John 15:26 mentioned the origin of the Holy Spirit as “hopara tou Patros ekporeuetai” The word ekporeuetai come from the basic form of “ekporeuomai” which means “to proceed”. The Holy Spirit proceed from God. As the Holy Spirit proceed from God, He is not created. So, the Holy Spirit proceed from God = the Spirit of God = God.
The only and only special thing about the Holy Spirit in our lifetime post to Jesus’ service, is the Holy Spirit dwell within each of any human who believe in Him. How can a human being detect the existence of Holy Spirit in another human being, is through the fruits that such a human being yield. We can see that the Holy Spirit exist within Mother Theresa, for example, because we see what Mother Theresa has done. The Holy Spirit empowered a human being named Theresa, so that Mother Theresa could do what the world has seen today. Thanks to the individual woman named Theresa that she allowed herself to be guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot independently empowered human by Himself. How can one Holy Spirit dwell within billions of human, it is within the infinite power of God. Nothing is impossible to God. God sends his own Spirit because God out of his love wants to live and present among us himself, rather than being away from us.
Back to my question above. God = Word of God = Spirit of God, that is what we believe as Trinity with respect to the point of view of human, as we perceive God as He reveals himself to us. Of course, with respect to the point of view of God, no need for God to send his Word, nor Spirit to himself.
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AbeOman
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