Theology in Christianity and Islam

[AbeOman]

It is true that the Koran teaches that the word of God (referring to the Koran) is eternal and uncreated. The Koran also refers to Jesus as the Word of God. But I don’t think that from that you can draw the conclusion that in Islamic theology Jesus must therefore be uncreated and eternal. The two words will probably be interpreted by Islamic theologians in different ways in each context. When Jesus is referred to in the Koran (or the Bible) as being the Word of God, they probably interpret that to mean that Jesus brought the word of God to the people; not that He Himself is literally the word of God. Moslems believe that Jesus was no hither station than an ordinary prophet, like the Old Testament prophets; and that Mohamed has an even higher position, as the last prophet, to Jesus.
zerinus

3 clarifications.
1- Eternal and uncreated are the attributes of God or the Arabic/Aramiac Allah. Allah to me is a name not more not less.
itself does not represent the one God…and has no special values accept as name.

2- From Our Lord and father Abra-him (Ibrahim…) to all prophets ending with Muhammad…“Peace & blessings be upon all of them” Muslims believe they are all the same,none higher placed then other unless God tells us otherwise…did God said in The Quran that Muhammad is better then others BIG NO, did muhammad said in his Sunna he is better then anyone Big No.
What we have is that some of them had special instructions, situation, purposes, signs, miracles, etc from God
Moreover, some were Prophets and Messangers at the same time and some were just Messangers. meaning some had new scriptures and some where sent down just to renew the old ones but all had the continuity of our father Ibrahim…(Peace be upon him)
Some examples…
Our Lord Jesus (peace and the blessing be upon him)
had special signs and miracles…such as healing powers, speaking or talking at cradle…the birth coming backing to earth, etc noting that the birth along is not a miracle since our Father Adam (peace be upon him) was also without a father

3- As muslim…I don’t care much about human politics of religion as far as your trinity is concerned…if it takes me directly one…single, eternal and uncreated or unbegotten, who does not have human attributes or nature and who does not have anyone similar to him then I’m Catholic…end of

 

[zerinus]

3 clarifications.
1- Eternal and uncreated are the attributes of God or the Arabic/Aramiac Allah. Allah to me is a name not more not less.
itself does not represent the one God…and has no special values accept as name.

2- From Our Lord and father Abra-him (Ibrahim…) to all prophets ending with Muhammad…“Peace & blessings be upon all of them” Muslims believe they are all the same,none higher placed then other unless God tells us otherwise…did God said in The Quran that Muhammad is better then others BIG NO, did muhammad said in his Sunna he is better then anyone Big No.
What we have is that some of them had special instructions, situation, purposes, signs, miracles, etc from God
Moreover, some were Prophets and Messangers at the same time and some were just Messangers. meaning some had new scriptures and some where sent down just to renew the old ones but all had the continuity of our father Ibrahim…(Peace be upon him)
Some examples…
Our Lord Jesus (peace and the blessing be upon him)
had special signs and miracles…such as healing powers, speaking or talking at cradle…the birth coming backing to earth, etc noting that the birth along is not a miracle since our Father Adam (peace be upon him) was also without a father

3- As muslim…I don’t care much about human politics of religion as far as your trinity is concerned…if it takes me directly one…single, eternal and uncreated or unbegotten, who does not have human attributes or nature and who does not have anyone similar to him then I’m Catholic…end of

But Moslems believe that Mohamed was the last and greatest prophet, no? They believe that he brought the last and greatest religion. They also believe that Jesus was a prophet like any other, nothing different.

zerinus

 

[hamba2han]

we all agree to this.

He begetteth not nor was He begotten. … Al-Qur’an, Chapter Al-Ikhlas, Verse 3

This verse completely negates the Christian idea of the godhead, “the Father”, “the only begotten Son”, etc. and disqualifies Jesus (pbuh) from any form of divinity.

I really do not see how it is possible for Christians to say that they agree with the truth of Surah Al-Ikhlas and still remain faithful to their Christian beliefs.

And the Qur’an further elaborates and defines the nature of Allah:

**22. He is Allah, than whom there is no other God, the Knower of the invisible and the visible. He is the Beneficent, the Merciful.
23. He is Allah, than whom there is no other God, the Sovereign Lord the Holy One, Peace, the Keeper of Faith, the Guardian, the Majestic, the Compeller, the Superb. Glorified be Allah from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him).
24. He is Allah, the Creator, the Shaper out of naught, the Fashioner. His are the most beautiful names. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifieth Him, and He is the Mighty, the Wise. ** … Surah 59:22-24. (Pickthall)

 

[AbeOman]

its been meaningful to billions of people for the last 2000 years.

Amen and Agree with you 100% and our my muslim brother has no right what-so-ever to claim that but he spoke of his mind and I respect that but don’t accept it…!
The mystery means that God is beyond human comprehension.

Here, here…Amen, and God whatever name we call him in Arabic, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic or English, he is beyond our comprehension and it’s not our business to get beyond the limits of his covenants and laws.

He has lied down laws and we should blindly and without questions follow and obey. Otherwise we are all wicked idolatrous generations as it rightly says in the bible and the Quran.

 

[AbeOman]

But Moslems believe that Mohamed was the last and greatest prophet, no? They believe that he brought the last and greatest religion. They also believe that Jesus was a prophet like any other, nothing different.

zerinus

My lovely friend, first it’s Muslim and not Moslems…(reminds me how the necons say it) and it’s Muhammad (PBBUH).
Yes, he is the ‘Last Messenger’ or the ‘Seal of the Prophets’ based on the canon and NO he is not greater or the greatest of other prophets)

Let me explain this,

God instructs us in the Quran Al Kareem the following:
“Allaah chooses Messengers from angels and from men. Verily, Allaah is All-Hearer, All-Seer” [Al-Hajj 22:75]

and…

“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allaah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour)” [Al-Baqarah 2:253]

and…

“And also some of their fathers and their progeny and their brethren, We chose them, and We guided them to the Straight Path” [al-An’aam 6:87].

and…

“And Allaah has preferred some of you above others in wealth and properties” [Al-Nahl 16:71].

Please note the above are only interpretation of the meaning and the actual versus are in Arabic.

So what God is telling us…he is telling us that to him they are different but to me as his subject they don’t…for example, he made Solomon very wealthy and Ayoub very poor and sickly.

God granted Moses (PBUH) the prevelige of speaking to him directly but he did not to one of the others.

God granted Jesus (PBUH) lots of miracles and special powers which he did not gave to Muhammad.

God granted Muhammad the seal of prophets and the last revelation that combines all the books or Hikma or laws of God.
he also gave him Esra wal Meraj but he did not gave that to others.

So to conclude it’s god business how he differenciates his prophets and messengers but to us muslims they are all the say, they are all God’s prophets and messengers. hence we are not to favor one over the other, we are not to love one more than the other.etc,etc.

As for your comment on how i regard our Lord (Sayidna) Jesus (PBUH) he is one of the mighest messengers of God, I believe his “Injil” book of gospels and I strictly believe his message from God as it was sent down to him.

Now there tow issue I have to address.

1- I believe that there are misinterpretations or distortions in the Bible and by humans. noting that the same distortions and misinterpretaions or outright lies are done to Hadiths (Prophet Muhammads own teachings)
2- By degree of reasoning and knowledge of scholars whatever is correct from the bible is acceptable to me as same applies to the Prophets hadiths.
3- God pledges to safeguard the Quran as he clearly says in the Quran but that does not seem to be apply to the Bible and the Hadiths.

God says…"Surely, We Ourself have sent down this Quran, and We will, most certainly, safeguard it ( 15: 10).

what does this mean, it means that the safeguarding of the Holy Quran which is here guaranteed is absolute and has many aspects. One of them is that the text of the Holy Quran would always be preserved intact.

There are six basic beliefs shared and uphold by all Muslims:

Belief in God, the one and only one worthy of all worship.
Belief in all the Prophets and Messengers (sent by God).
Belief in the Books sent by God.
Belief in the Angels.
Belief in the Day of Judgment (Qiyamah) and in the Resurrection.
Belief in Destiny (Fate) (Qadaa and Qadar in Arabic). …Continue…]/COLOR]

 

[AbeOman]

But Moslems believe that Mohamed was the last and greatest prophet, no? They believe that he brought the last and greatest religion. They also believe that Jesus was a prophet like any other, nothing different.

zerinus

…Continuation…

Allow me to explain this, the basic creed means that "I believe in God; and in His Angels; and in His Scriptures; and in His Messengers; and in The Final Day; and in Fate, that Good and Evil are from God, and Resurrection after death be Truth.
“I testify that there is nothing worthy of worship but God; and I testify that Muhammad is His Messenger.”

The fundamental concept in Islam is the oneness of God (tawhid). This monotheism is absolute, not relative or pluralistic in any sense of the word. God is described in Sura al-Ikhlas, (chapter 112) as follows: Say “He is God, the one, the Self-Sufficient master. He never begot, nor was begotten. There is none comparable to Him.”

furthermore, God teaches us in the Quran "“O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth . The Messiah , Jesus son of Mary , was only a messenger of Allah , and His word which He conveyed unto Mary , and a spirit from Him . So believe in Allah and His messengers , and say not “three” . Cease! ( it is ) better for you! Allah is only One God . Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son . His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth . And Allah is sufficient as its defender.” [Chapter 4 : Surah 171.

Believe me, if was this then I would have believed in the Trinity.
furthermore, the concept of “son” is excluded. see Chapter 112 (the sura noted above).

However, and this is very important one…on the bases of the following verse or Ayah in the Quran Al kareem, I have and every God fearing Muslim has to respect and live peacefully with people of other faiths or religions and should never claim that Islam is superior to others…"There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.[Al Baqarah 2:256]

 

[AbeOman]

AbeOman;2874588:

like if we say Omnipotence is an attribute of God, but is God “made of” Omnipotence? no in this sense they are not the same though only God is omnipotent so they are intercheangeable…

When i say the Word of God = God, it does not mean that the Word = God in position since it proceeds from Him, but is equal to God in essence.

Is that your question?

My apologies, this thread may be bit late to reply but just saw it and found it very interesting. Thanks so much for putting it this way,

Yes, if you mean in essence the word of God belongs to God but not equal onto him, see it’s one of his attributes, qualities, etc but it’s not equal onto him or to him.

Example, if you say that God is love, I agree but is Love God…?
No.

Say God is Just, yes I agree but is Justice God, naturally no.

Now let us examine this, first keep in mine this which I agree with you that our human knowledge is limited hence we know God as to what he said he is and not.

Since I don’t and CAN NOT define God with my limited knowledge then I have to accept what he says in the Quran, in my case and in the Bible in your case…so far you are with me.

Where is the difference…it’s what is in the Bible and Quran…that is it.
Hence the Bible and Quran expressions MUST be clear, not contradicting and MUST be directly from GOD and not through a 3rd party…like Hadiths or say Book of James or None Gospel books.

Do you agree…?

 

[inJESUS]

may God bless you too.

However, deep understanding is important but not who is openion is right or wrong.

this is what am trying to say.

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, first let’s use Allah and God interchangebly since both words mean the same to me.

basically Alllah is a proper name in Islam while God is not a proper name thats why a Muslim is asked to say Allah even if his mother tongue is not Arabic.

2- I believe attributes are part of nature and the two words are the same so one is derived from the other. hence I know what are God’s attributes, for example we have about 99 of them such as mercyful… and i believe you do, i have few i heard from my Catholic friends that love specialy during prayers.

ok

3- Finally, I can not imagine what God looks like, his shape or size, place, etc as muslim if I do that then I become an idolater

since only God knows God, i do not think it is a matter of idolatory but rather that you can’t reach those answers because you are not God and are limited.

 

[inJESUS]

3- As muslim…I don’t care much about human politics of religion as far as your trinity is concerned…if it takes me directly one…single, eternal and uncreated or unbegotten, who does not have human attributes or nature and who does not have anyone similar to him then I’m Catholic…end of

this is wht this thread is about. To explain the Trinity in terms of monotheism.

God is One, eternal, uncreated, unbegotten, does not have human attributes or nature and no one is similar to Him.

These are not against the teachings of the Trinity which is about God, His Word, His Spirit = One, uncreated, unbegotten (physically), does not have human nature and no one similar to Him.

BUT, here comes the misunderstanding of the Trinity :

Jesus’ second nature as a man.

Before adressing this issue, do you agree that God, His Word (uncreated, eternal), His Spirit(uncreated, eternal) as revealed in OT and NT is monotheism?

If we agree on this, then we can move to the biggest misunderstanding which is about Jesus’ second nature, according to my experience with Muslims.

 

[inJESUS]

He begetteth not nor was He begotten.

… Al-Qur’an, Chapter Al-Ikhlas, Verse 3

This verse completely negates the Christian idea of the godhead, “the Father”, “the only begotten Son”, etc. and disqualifies Jesus (pbuh) from any form of divinity. Hamba2han,

before judging, isn’t it better to understand what “begotten” means in Christian theology?

Begotten in Islam is refused because Allah says : how can i have a son if i have no CONSORT?

This explanation of begotten as physical birth from God and a woman has absolutely nothing to do with the word begotten used in Christian theology.

The Word of God is begotten of God = it PROCEEDS from Him. It has nothing to do with how the Quran puts it.

You beget your words = your words proceed from you. It by no way means that you had sex with a woman to beget your words.

And the Qur’an further elaborates and defines the nature of Allah:

 

[inJESUS]

Yes, if you mean in essence the word of God belongs to God but not equal onto him, see it’s one of his attributes, qualities, etc but it’s not equal onto him or to him.

i didnt understand your idea. You quote the Quran only (you reject all hadith?) , and we quote the NT, as we have it right?

 

[hamba2han]

before judging, isn’t it better to understand what “begotten” means in Christian theology?

Begotten in Islam is refused because Allah says : how can i have a son if i have no CONSORT?

This explanation of begotten as physical birth from God and a woman has absolutely nothing to do with the word begotten used in Christian theology.

The Word of God is begotten of God = it PROCEEDS from Him. It has nothing to do with how the Quran puts it.

You beget your words = your words proceed from you. It by no way means that you had sex with a woman to beget your words.

We should first define the word ‘beget’.

According to Merriam-Webster:
1 : to procreate as the father : sire
2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

According to Dictionary.com Unabridged:
1 (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2 to cause; produce as an effect

According to the Oxford English Dictionary:
1 produce (a child).
2 cause.

Why on earth then should the authors of the Bible define the word ‘beget’ as ‘PROCEED’??

 

[zerinus]

…Continuation…

Allow me to explain this, the basic creed means that "I believe in God; and in His Angels; and in His Scriptures; and in His Messengers; and in The Final Day; and in Fate, that Good and Evil are from God, and Resurrection after death be Truth.
“I testify that there is nothing worthy of worship but God; and I testify that Muhammad is His Messenger.”

The fundamental concept in Islam is the oneness of God (tawhid). This monotheism is absolute, not relative or pluralistic in any sense of the word. God is described in Sura al-Ikhlas, (chapter 112) as follows: Say “He is God, the one, the Self-Sufficient master. He never begot, nor was begotten. There is none comparable to Him.”

furthermore, God teaches us in the Quran "“O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth . The Messiah , Jesus son of Mary , was only a messenger of Allah , and His word which He conveyed unto Mary , and a spirit from Him . So believe in Allah and His messengers , and say not “three” . Cease! ( it is ) better for you! Allah is only One God . Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son . His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth . And Allah is sufficient as its defender.” [Chapter 4 : Surah 171.

Believe me, if was this then I would have believed in the Trinity.
furthermore, the concept of “son” is excluded. see Chapter 112 (the sura noted above).

However, and this is very important one…on the bases of the following verse or Ayah in the Quran Al kareem, I have and every God fearing Muslim has to respect and live peacefully with people of other faiths or religions and should never claim that Islam is superior to others…"There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.[Al Baqarah 2:256]

I suppose in Islam as in other religions it is possible to have more than one opinion. Most of the Moslems I have met, however, seem to think that Mohamed was the last and greatest prophet. It is true that all men are considered equal in the sight of God; but some prophets are considered greater than others. For example, some prophets have brought great new dispensations or religions, and additional books of scripture. Hence Jews, Christians, and Moslems are called the “people of the book”. These prophets, which include Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed, are considered greater than other prophets. I think it is fair to say that the majority of Moslems consider Mohamed to be the last and greatest prophet, and the religion he brought the last and greatest religion.

zerinus

 

[AbeOman]

this is wht this thread is about. To explain the Trinity in terms of monotheism.

God is One, eternal, uncreated, unbegotten, does not have human attributes or nature and no one is similar to Him.

These are not against the teachings of the Trinity which is about God, His Word, His Spirit = One, uncreated, unbegotten (physically), does not have human nature and no one similar to Him.

BUT, here comes the misunderstanding of the Trinity :

Jesus’ second nature as a man.

Before adressing this issue, do you agree that God, His Word (uncreated, eternal), His Spirit(uncreated, eternal) as revealed in OT and NT is monotheism?

If we agree on this, then we can move to the biggest misunderstanding which is about Jesus’ second nature, according to my experience with Muslims.

Honestly and sincerely, I do agree with you most of what you saying but once you mention the T word, I get to be careful.

To answer you, yes, I solemnly and in most strongest terms believe that God is uncreated, eternal, however, the word is his and by from him, he said both in the bible and the Quran “sent down our word” or sent our word" or a word from us" etc, otherwise, where the word is coming from? or who’s word is it?

Can I suggest that if you allow me to limit my references to the NT (the Gospel…Injil) and the Quran since OT (the Book of Moses…Torah) does not accept our Lord Jesus (PBBUH) in any form or shape. can I?

So then explain to me is the spirit and word the same and if so then who they belong to. my apologize in advance this is all new to me so don’t think I’m bit daft by asking these sort of questions.

Thanks

 

[AbeOman]

Hamba2han,

 

[AbeOman]

I suppose in Islam as in other religions it is possible to have more than one opinion. Most of the Moslems I have met, however, seem to think that Mohamed was the last and greatest prophet. It is true that all men are considered equal in the sight of God; but some prophets are considered greater than others. For example, some prophets have brought great new dispensations or religions, and additional books of scripture. Hence Jews, Christians, and Moslems are called the “people of the book”. These prophets, which include Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed, are considered greater than other prophets. I think it is fair to say that the majority of Moslems consider Mohamed to be the last and greatest prophet, and the religion he brought the last and greatest religion.

zerinus

I agree with you 100%, my father is always better yours is a common believe held by every little boy in school.
Never-the-less, as you have rightly pointed out God in his own way bestowed more favors or connons to one over the other in way or another.

As matter of fact, in my eyes prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is more dear to me then my own parents and all the gold in fort knox, however when it comes to other prophets that would not made them any less and still they are all more beloved and important to me then anything in God’s creation, why you may ask because they all lead to the way of God.

 

[AgnosTheist]

He has lied down laws and we should blindly and without questions follow and obey.

that contradicts our god-given talent for reasoning & questioning. your logic implies that god contradicts himself.

 

[MH84]

I have nothing to contribute to this discussion. But would it be fair to say that from an Islamic point of view, Muslims think our concept of the Trinity is made up, just as we think the Mormons view of God is man-made?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Muslims think our concept of the Trinity is made up

Muslims think that the Trinity is made up.

Christians think that Islam is made up.

Sounds fair.

 

[zerinus]

I agree with you 100%, my father is always better yours is a common believe held by every little boy in school.
Never-the-less, as you have rightly pointed out God in his own way bestowed more favors or connons to one over the other in way or another.

As matter of fact, in my eyes prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is more dear to me then my own parents and all the gold in fort knox, however when it comes to other prophets that would not made them any less and still they are all more beloved and important to me then anything in God’s creation, why you may ask because they all lead to the way of God.

Thank you. In any case, I brought that subject up in order to demonstrate to inJESUS the impossibility of reconciling the Christian concept of the Trinity with the Islamic doctrine of the Unity (tawhid). That premise holds true regardless of whether Mohamed is considered the greatest prophet or not. In either case, Jesus is considered an ordinary man and a great prophet—but nothing more; hence the attributes of “eternalness” and “uncreatedness” cannot be applied to Him. The fact that Jesus is referred to in the Koran as the “Word of God” cannot be used for that purpose. A Moslem theologian would have no choice but to interpret that verse in such a way as to exclude that possibility.

zerinus