Theoretical Question - Married American Priest

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The right to be a celibate priest is in no danger from eastern Christians.
I think this wording of “right” is part of the conceptual problem. I think no one has a 'right" to the priesthood. It is a vocation, and a privilege. The Latin Rite prefers to choose from among those called to celibacy for a variety of reasons.

I think the Western sense of individuality and personal “rights” has impinged upon a sense of obedience to the Church. There is a sense that people have the “right” to be a priest, or to be a married priest.
 
And by the way, **I can care less **about ecumenism if it means we have to lower ourselves to them than them to us. And that is entirely moral and theological. Our Lord Jesus Christ already died for us so that the Church needn’t be massacred as well with perverse ways.
Yes, your attitude does represent a lack of charity.

In your mind, you seem to see yourself above others, so that having unity would somehow mean “lowering” of yourself.

I would have to say that your attitude is the perversity that massacres!
 
O Rome immortal of Martyrs and Saints,
O immortal Rome, accept our praises:
Glory in the heavens to God our Lord,
And peace to men who love Christ!

To You we come, Angelic Pastor,
In You we see the gentle Redeemer,
The Holy Heir of true and holy Faith;
Comfort and refuge of those who believe and fight.

Force and terror will not prevail,
But Truth and Love will reign.

Who is glorious like Rome?

And on eccumenism, the only morally acceptable eccumenism is that everyone becomes Catholic.

If we have to do things that aren’t Catholic to make them convert,
then it is not worth it.
 
Hello Guan,

I am not going to disagree with you basic contention here.
I think this wording of “right” is part of the conceptual problem. I think no one has a 'right" to the priesthood. It is a vocation, and a privilege.
OK, let me rephrase that…

The right of a successful priest candidate to choose celibacy is in no danger from Eastern Christians.
The Latin Rite prefers to choose from among those called to celibacy for a variety of reasons.
Whatever those may be, they are of no real concern here, unless they are imposed upon the east from outside. If and when ***that ***ever happens Eastern Christians are going to have a lot to say on the subject.
I think the Western sense of individuality and personal “rights” has impinged upon a sense of obedience to the Church. There is a sense that people have the “right” to be a priest, or to be a married priest.
I hope that you did not think that was what I meant. I am sure you know that in eastern churches one does not have the right to aspire to doorkeeper or bell ringer, much less deacon or priest or bishop. And I agree with that attitude wholeheartedly.

However, in my opinion, if a bishop were to disqualify a priest candidate for the simple reason that he was a married man and for no other reason (assuming here that he is qualified, needed and capable in every other discernible way and would have been otherwise ordained if he were single), I would consider his rejection an abuse.

Please note that I am not referring to a Latin church bishop here. It is not even in my thoughts on this subject. They can do whatever they want.
 
** Originally Posted by Pro Domina View Post
And by the way, I can care less about ecumenism if it means we have to lower ourselves to them than them to us.**

Are you saying that “them” lowering themselves to “us” IS acceptable?
 
So here is question for you. I am Latin rite. I might feel the call to the priesthood and am married. Are you guys against the idea of changing rites to one in which I could be a priest? Keep in mind I am not talking about going back to the Latin rite, just leaving the rite to become a priest and then STAYING in that new rite what ever that may be.

Debate all.👍
 
So here is question for you. I am Latin rite. I might feel the call to the priesthood and am married. Are you guys against the idea of changing rites to one in which I could be a priest? Keep in mind I am not talking about going back to the Latin rite, just leaving the rite to become a priest and then STAYING in that new rite what ever that may be.

Debate all.👍
I think it would be improper for anyone to change liturgical traditions for any reason other than really and truly believing what is taught there and have come to know the spirituality and wish to follow that. Ideally such a person would make the change without any anticipation or expectation of entering the clerical state, but because they identify with the tradition and it speaks to them.

If, after one has done this, and made a canonical transfer to a bishop of an eastern church, it might happen that this person feels called to serve God at the altar, perhaps as a deacon or perhaps as a priest. It has happened many times before and it undoubtedly will happen in the future.

If a Latin Catholic is merely interested in skirting the canon law of mandatory clerical celibacy in his church, the idea will not survive the scrutiny of the bishops and his request for canonical transfer will be denied. Not only that, it is rather unfair to the community to be given a priest who does not adopt the full theological and spiritual tradition. [There have already been far too many of that sort, many home grown of course, but still too many in any case.]

If one is a Latin in his heart, he should bloom where he is planted.

That’s my opinion
 
So here is question for you. I am Latin rite. I might feel the call to the priesthood and am married. Are you guys against the idea of changing rites to one in which I could be a priest? Keep in mind I am not talking about going back to the Latin rite, just leaving the rite to become a priest and then STAYING in that new rite what ever that may be.

Debate all.👍
Technically, yes. Practically, no. Transfer of Church Enrollment for ordination is discouraged; it is a significant impediment even for celibate clerical seminary.

Also a technical correction of guanophore’s post: 23 Sui Iuris Churches, not rites; only 6 rites are acknowledged by rome. Roman, Byzantine (Constant(name removed by moderator)lean), Antiocene, Coptic(Alexandrian), Armenian, and Syriac(Chaldean). (CCEO Canon 28)
 
Likely that would also be flushed out by the Eastern Catholic bishop of the Eparchy you are transferring to. They are in general quite wary of “floaters” who come over from the Latin Church just for ordination.

As Michael mentioned above, a transfer of ritual church should be for positive spiritual benefit, i.e. that you are drawn to the liturgical and spiritual life of that church, in which case any subsequent ordination is secondary, and according to God’s time and will.

In most Eparchies you would have to demonstrate yourself as a stable member of an Eastern Catholic parish for perhaps as long as five years, depending on the bishop, before you could even be considered as a vocation. When I entered diaconate formation, you had to have a letter verifying you had been an active member of that particular eparchial parish for at least five years.
FDRLB
 
only 6 rites are acknowledged by rome. Roman, Byzantine (Constant(name removed by moderator)lean), Antiocene, Coptic(Alexandrian), Armenian, and Syriac(Chaldean). (CCEO Canon 28)
Actually Canon 28 reads:
The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are **those which arise from **the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.
“Arise from” does not appear to literally limit the rites to six, which are actually referred to as “traditions”, not rites, in the root definition of the CCEO.

Even liturgical historians debate such things as if the Syrian rites should be considered together or separated, as the CCEO suggests, between West Syrian (Antiochene) and East Syrian (Chaldean) developments.
FDRLB
 
It is a lttle known fact that as the latin church ordains married men as deacons they have already abandoned their tradition of celibacy.

There is no justifiable reason to ordain married men as deacons and not ordain priests. The rule for one was always for the other it is incomprehensible to change this.

At this point in time it is to me a mixture of politics and hypocrisy.
 
in short, everything that can genuinly and sovereignly express Catholicism and decorate the Church of God, all of this becomes null, accursed, sterile , worthy of eternal flames and the Wrath of God if it deviates from the Roman Pontiff."
God help me if I should fall into heresy because do not believe the above statement can officially be the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Concerning Primacy of the Roman Patriarch one must remember the Churches dormant tradition of the Pentarchy. An outstanding partisan of the Pentarchic idea was the patriarch Nicephorus. In his defense of the cult of images, after the passage in which he so clearly expressed the Primacy of Rome, the patriarch mentions that in addition to Rome, Constantinople and the three patriarchal and apostolic sees—apparently, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem-had equally condemned Iconoclasm. He then continued:

It is the ancient law of the Church that whatever uncertainties or controversies arise in the Church of God, they are resolved and defined by the ecumenical synods, with the assent and approbation of the bishops who hold the apostolic sees.

It is well known that it was at the Ignatian Council of 869-870 that this Pentarchic idea was particularly developed. It will suffice here to cite the words by which the patrician Baanes, the representative of Basil I, defined this idea:

God founded His Church on the five patriarchs and in the Gospels He defined that it could never completely fail because they are the chiefs of the Church. In effect Christ had said: “…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her,” which means: if two of them should happen to fail, they will turn to the three others, if three of them happen to fail, they shall address themselves to two others; and if by chance four of them come to failure the last who dwells in Christ Our God, the Chief of all, will restore again the rest of the body of the Church.

The idea of the Pentarchy has often been considered as being very dangerous for the Roman Primacy and in direct opposition to it, but this opinion is surely exagerrated. We must understand the problem from the Byzantine point of view. The Pentarchic idea was an expression of the universality (catholicos) of the the Church. This universality was no longer represented by the universality of the Empire, which at this period was considerably reduced by the loss of the eastern provinces. Besides the idea that the teaching of Our Lord should be defined and explained by the five patriarchs, each of them representing the bishops of his patriarchate, was aimed at safeguarding the rights of the Sacerdotium which the Imperium should never infringe. From this point of view the pentarchic idea represented great progress in the contest which the Sacerdotium had carried on for so long against the Imperium, since the latter continued to misunderstand the true spirit of Christian Hellenism and sought to usurp the rights of the Sacerdotium in matters of doctrine. it was a long struggle that the Eastern Church had to wage, and she was to suffer many defeats which happened, in patricular, when a large part of the hierarchy rallied to the side of emperors who were in heresy. However, they were always able to make a recovery with the aid of the Church of the West, represented by the papacy.
We should also recognize that the Pentarchic idea did not at all suppose absolute equality among the patriarchs. The see of the ancient city of Rome was considered the first. This is always made sufficiently clear by those who remained faithfully attached to the principle. We may cite for example the Patriarch Nicephorus who speaking of the condemnation of the Iconoclasts by the seventh ecumenical council, added:
**
that the Iconoclasts have been rejected by the Catholic Church we know from the wise testimony and from confirmation in the letters which were, a short time ago, sent by the most holy and blessed archbishop of ancient Rome, that is to say the first Apostolic See.**

Furthermore, it is important to remember that the Pentarchic principle also expressed, according to the Byzantine mentality, the idea of the infallibility of the Church in matters of doctrine, a doctrine which the Orthodox church still professes today with firmess. Also the Pentarchic principle offered a certain foundation for a modus vivendi between Rome and Constantinople which sufficed for those times. This principle, no doubt, found its partisans even in Rome, as can be seen from what the famous Anastasius Bibliothecarius said in the preface to his translation of the Acts of the Council of 869-870. He defines the Roman conception of the Pentarchy in the following manner:

Just as Christ has placed in His body, that is to say, in His Church, a number of patriarchs equal to the number of the senses in the human body, the well being of the Church will not suffer as long as these sees are of the same will, just as the body will function properly as long as the five senses remain intact and healthy. And because, among them, the See of Rome has precedence, it can well be compared to the sense of sight which is certainly the first of the senses of the body, since it is the most vigilant and since it remains, more than any of the other senses, in communion with the whole body.
 
God help me if I should fall into heresy because do not believe the above statement can officially be the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Concerning Primacy of the Roman Patriarch one must remember the Churches dormant tradition of the Pentarchy. An outstanding partisan of the Pentarchic idea was the patriarch Nicephorus. In his defense of the cult of images, after the passage in which he so clearly expressed the Primacy of Rome, the patriarch mentions that in addition to Rome, Constantinople and the three patriarchal and apostolic sees—apparently, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem-had equally condemned Iconoclasm. He then continued:

It is the ancient law of the Church that whatever uncertainties or controversies arise in the Church of God, they are resolved and defined by the ecumenical synods, with the assent and approbation of the bishops who hold the apostolic sees.

It is well known that it was at the Ignatian Council of 869-870 that this Pentarchic idea was particularly developed. It will suffice here to cite the words by which the patrician Baanes, the representative of Basil I, defined this idea:

God founded His Church on the five patriarchs and in the Gospels He defined that it could never completely fail because they are the chiefs of the Church. In effect Christ had said: "…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her," which means: if two of them should happen to fail, they will turn to the three others, if three of them happen to fail, they shall address themselves to two others; and if by chance four of them come to failure the last who dwells in Christ Our God, the Chief of all, will restore again the rest of the body of the Church.

The idea of the Pentarchy has often been considered as being very dangerous for the Roman Primacy and in direct opposition to it, but this opinion is surely exagerrated. We must understand the problem from the Byzantine point of view. The Pentarchic idea was an expression of the universality (catholicos) of the the Church. This universality was no longer represented by the universality of the Empire, which at this period was considerably reduced by the loss of the eastern provinces. Besides the idea that the teaching of Our Lord should be defined and explained by the five patriarchs, each of them representing the bishops of his patriarchate, was aimed at safeguarding the rights of the Sacerdotium which the Imperium should never infringe. From this point of view the pentarchic idea represented great progress in the contest which the Sacerdotium had carried on for so long against the Imperium, since the latter continued to misunderstand the true spirit of Christian Hellenism and sought to usurp the rights of the Sacerdotium in matters of doctrine. it was a long struggle that the Eastern Church had to wage, and she was to suffer many defeats which happened, in patricular, when a large part of the hierarchy rallied to the side of emperors who were in heresy. However, they were always able to make a recovery with the aid of the Church of the West, represented by the papacy.
We should also recognize that the Pentarchic idea did not at all suppose absolute equality among the patriarchs. The see of the ancient city of Rome was considered the first. This is always made sufficiently clear by those who remained faithfully attached to the principle. We may cite for example the Patriarch Nicephorus who speaking of the condemnation of the Iconoclasts by the seventh ecumenical council, added:
**
that the Iconoclasts have been rejected by the Catholic Church we know from the wise testimony and from confirmation in the letters which were, a short time ago, sent by the most holy and blessed archbishop of ancient Rome, that is to say the first Apostolic See.**

Furthermore, it is important to remember that the Pentarchic principle also expressed, according to the Byzantine mentality, the idea of the infallibility of the Church in matters of doctrine, a doctrine which the Orthodox church still professes today with firmess. Also the Pentarchic principle offered a certain foundation for a modus vivendi between Rome and Constantinople which sufficed for those times. This principle, no doubt, found its partisans even in Rome, as can be seen from what the famous Anastasius Bibliothecarius said in the preface to his translation of the Acts of the Council of 869-870. He defines the Roman conception of the Pentarchy in the following manner:

Just as Christ has placed in His body, that is to say, in His Church, a number of patriarchs equal to the number of the senses in the human body, the well being of the Church will not suffer as long as these sees are of the same will, just as the body will function properly as long as the five senses remain intact and healthy. And because, among them, the See of Rome has precedence, it can well be compared to the sense of sight which is certainly the first of the senses of the body, since it is the most vigilant and since it remains, more than any of the other senses, in communion with the whole body.
That is without a doubt wrong, at least in context.

The Roman Pontiff is the visible head of the Church.

Not just the eyes.
 
It is a lttle known fact that as the latin church ordains married men as deacons they have already abandoned their tradition of celibacy.
There is no justifiable reason to ordain married men as deacons and not ordain priests. The rule for one was always for the other it is incomprehensible to change this.
As has been pointed out, Rome has permitted public ordainations of married former Episcopalians and Lutherans.

It should be remembered that these men technically were never ordained priests before their Catholic ordinations, since Rome does not recognize the validity of orders in either the Lutheran or Episcopal churches. Leo XIII opined that all Anglican/Episcopal orders were invalid and these should be received into the Catholic Church by ordination, not simply a profession of faith, which is still the practice.

So in these cases Rome is clearly ordaining married men to the priesthood who were not previously Catholic priests (and more are in the process).
FDRLB
 
It is a lttle known fact that as the latin church ordains married men as deacons they have already abandoned their tradition of celibacy.

There is no justifiable reason to ordain married men as deacons and not ordain priests. The rule for one was always for the other it is incomprehensible to change this.

At this point in time it is to me a mixture of politics and hypocrisy.
The permanent deaconate serves a very real role in the Roman church: preventing one of the larger “abuses” of the late pre-V II Roman mass: having a priest function as deacon. post trent, pre-V II, the deaconate was overwhelmingly transitional, the few permanent deacons of the time were usually men who failed to make adequate progress in their final year of priestly formation. The others were men who had crises of faith* during the same period. (I know one. 12 years later, he finally was ordained a priest.)

Now, as for allowing married deacons, most called to a celibate clerical life do in fact feel called to the priesthood.

But, given the salaries, married priests are going to be needing outside work or a working spouse in order to raise children. Permanent deacons, however, do far less parish work, and are not universally paid (at one parish, my dad’s salary was $25/month, specifically so he was covered by the workman’s comp. His baptismal stipends, however, often hit $200/month; the paperwork shows a recommendation of $25 per baptism.)

-=-=-=-
*not of necessity a crisis of faith in the church, but in some cases, a crises of “Can I handle this?” or “Is the priesthood really my calling?”
 
It is a lttle known fact that as the latin church ordains married men as deacons they have already abandoned their tradition of celibacy.

There is no justifiable reason to ordain married men as deacons and not ordain priests. The rule for one was always for the other it is incomprehensible to change this.

At this point in time it is to me a mixture of politics and hypocrisy.
To state such a thing so uncharitably is severely disordered to me. I may prefer a married clergy, but I love the celibate clergy even more. However, slinging insults around like an indignant child is abusive… I will pray for you.
 
It would appear that in the background over a very lengthy period of time, the Vatican may be seeing how the married priesthood pans out. It is possible that the married clergy, the married permanent deacons are a sign of the Church slowly considering the posibility of returning to allowing married men to the priesthood. I believe that the celibate priesthood comes with its greatness, but it also has its drawbacks that are rarely discussed. That may be a topic for another thread. But not for over criticism. Remember, we are the flock, not the sheppards.
 
I’m actually guessing that the Roman rite will be have a majority of the pastoral work in the upcomming years done by permanent deacons. This will hopefully free up the priest to confer the sacraments as best he can.

My thinking of my original question is this.
  1. God calls man, married or not, to the priesthood. No one else calls with a true calling.
  2. Roman rite does not allowed a married priesthood.
  3. The permanent diaconate is not the priesthood.
  4. It is then incumbent upon the man to respond to God’s call to service in His church no mater of what tradition. If that means years of waiting to prove sincerity and respect to that particular tradition then so be it.
  5. God’s call is not to be ignored.
~redsoxfan
 
I’m actually guessing that the Roman rite will be have a majority of the pastoral work in the upcomming years done by permanent deacons. This will hopefully free up the priest to confer the sacraments as best he can.

My thinking of my original question is this.
  1. God calls man, married or not, to the priesthood. No one else calls with a true calling.
  2. Roman rite does not allowed a married priesthood.
  3. The permanent diaconate is not the priesthood.
  4. It is then incumbent upon the man to respond to God’s call to service in His church no mater of what tradition. If that means years of waiting to prove sincerity and respect to that particular tradition then so be it.
  5. God’s call is not to be ignored.
~redsoxfan
Don’t forget, deacons confir sacraments too. Baptism and Marriage.
 
I didn’t forget. It’s a good thing, but it is not the priesthood.and if God calls you to the priesthood and you go to the permanent diaconate you still aren’t going where God wants you to go.
 
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