There IS life after DEATH: Scientists reveal shock findings from groundbreaking study

[TCEL]

There are a lot of people that I’ve heard say things along the lines of “I want to believe in God, but it wouldn’t be honest of me to say it, when I really don’t.” I’ve heard many variations of this. People that live lives of love, raising a family, and working hard to provide for the family.

My thought is there are those that simply seeing God would cause them to start worshiping him. While there are many others that are so stuck on the idea of being in control of everything, or they have terrible ideas of God, or are so attached to their sins, etc. These people would not choose to worship God, even if he gave them a final chance.

I have very good reasons to hope in God’s mercy, but I also have very good reasons to not presume on it. Not because of Him, but because of us. I believe St. Thomas Aquinas said that the will steers the intellect. Very sobering. It’s hard to imagine that people, upon seeing God, would still choose against Him. A hard heart is a reality which I think it most important, first and foremost, to guard against in myself.

 

[Peebo]

And if consciousness does persist after the heart stops doesn’t that suggest to non-believers that we do have souls, i.e., we are more than matter.

Not really…they would say that it only proves that the brain is still active for a short period of time after the heart stops…once the brain is starved of oxygen then it will die and all consciousness will fade away and we will cease to exist…but for a few minutes we may be fully aware knowing we are dead…there is no turning back…am I going to heaven…or hell…or into oblivion…just the fact for those few minutes we will know we are dead and are aware of it…that part alone has to be scary

 

[EIF5A]

My understanding is that St. Therese of Lisieux and Padre Pio both believed there is always a “last chance” for repentance and redemption.

Does that include non-Catholic Christians who never received Eucharist?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Does that include non-Catholic Christians who never received Eucharist?

My impression is that they meant everybody. But I’ll admit it has been some time since I have read either of them.

I don’t recall either of them opining that the person actually sees God as He is at that moment, exactly. Someone will say I’m wrong, but as I recall the concept is that at or near (perhaps even after) the moment of death we have total lucidity. We see everything we ever did in absolute clarity, and it’s a horrifying experience. We are then offered forgiveness and God’s absolute love, and we know what they are. But we also know acceptance requires absolute acceptance of the judgment of our acts in all their horror, without excuse, without self-justification, without bargaining, and it the most total humility imaginable. We then can choose to accept God’s forgiveness and (undeserved) love, or we can choose ourselves, knowing without the slightest confusion what the choice means.
If we choose ourselves, we choose whatever hell is.

Hard to imagine anybody choosing hell, but a person can imagine it a little, especially if one recalls any incident in one’s life when some person’s forgiveness was offered, but we rejected it out of pride.

Ste Therese had a parable she told about the rabbit and the hunter. The hunter is out hunting and he sees the rabbit. He gives chase. The rabbit evades, eludes, does every rabbit trick, but is finally cornered by the hunter. All is clear. Evasions are no longer possible. The rabbit is doomed. So what does the rabbit do?

He leaps into the arms of the hunter, and is saved.

I realize much that Ste Therese said is not acceptable to some very good people. Gaining salvation in this life is, to many, an “on-off” switch. We’re either in the state of grace at the moment of death or we aren’t, and there are no second chances. I’m no theologian, so I have to accept they might be right in saying that.

But maybe it’s a bit more complicated. Ste Therese also said she would not fear hell even if she had committed every sin there was to commit, because she loved God. What does that mean? Does it mean she would confess them all, get absolution and stay sinless until death? My belief is that she meant she had confidence she would achieve “final penitence” because she loved God.

How does one love God? Essentially, for her, as I read her, it means she retained gratitude for being allowed to live at all and to have a God who would envelope her in His love and wonder, all without her ever having earned or deserved it. And her “Little Way” was her way of “training” herself. There was an occasion when a dying sister of her order was suffering intense anxiety because she felt she had not “done enough” in her lifetime to deserve heaven. For Ste Therese, this was all wrong; one’s works don’t “deserve” heaven. One’s love for God disposed one to offer one’s life to Him even in little acts that give us no particular sense of elevation at all, and doing so predisposed one to accept it at the last. To think of it otherwise is to think of God as an “adversary” or a “taskmaster” whom we had to please in the way we would please an employer. We earn our pay or we don’t, and we get retained or we get fired. God, she said, is not like that.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Scientists will never understand the meaning of life after death. They only understand life and matter on this world. They have no knowledge of spiritual things.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Does that include non-Catholic Christians who never received Eucharist?

Continuing my possibly boring post.

The question almost implies, or perhaps asks, whether being in full union with the Church is a prerequisite to salvation? The Church doesn’t teach that.

Rather, it is an aid, a tremendous aid if we will only pay attention and have full faith in the Church. But I think a lot of us miss that, particularly Catholics who fall away from the Church.

Take the Sacrament of Penance. Lots of people find that hard and, finding it hard, sometimes reject it altogether as an imposition. That rejection leads to further rejections. But what is it really? It’s actually a “way out”, an “escape hatch” we can slide through even if our acceptance of God’s mercy and love is terribly faulty; perhaps even fatally so. Jesus gave the Church that power; to forgive sin even if you just can’t bring yourself to be sorry for it other than out of the fear of a hell you’re not even sure exists.

What is the Eucharist, then? I think the best description I ever read or heard was given by a person who was either Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic. Regardless, he said it was “…as close to heaven as we’ll ever get on this earth…” We make a journey (rather short one in most churches) to the presence of God. For a brief moment, at the moment we receive Communion, we are in union with God as much as is available while we’re still walking around in bodies. We’re flesh. It’s flesh. And for a moment, we’re joined just as we will someday be soul-to-soul. We’re still flesh, but we’re in heaven at that moment, as much as flesh will allow.

I think of that every time I go to Communion and, in truth, there really is something very different about that moment if one realizes what’s going on.

So, protestants, hindus, Buddhists…they don’t have those aids. Nor do they have teachings like that of Ste Therese’s “Little Way”. We, as Catholics, are much advantaged, but not ultimately privileged by the Church; its teachings and its sacraments.

All the more reason, then, as with STe Therese, to be grateful and to act with gratitude.

Hope this wasn’t boring, and somebody will probably accuse me of heresy. But I don’t think it’s heresy at all. I think it’s “core stuff” when it comes to Pope Francis’ idea of the “year of mercy”. It’s not a year in which some unique mercy will be extended. It’s a year to really consider and understand it. Will we listen?

It by no means signifies that right is no longer right and wrong is no longer wrong. Everything is just as right and wrong as it ever was. It’s just that we need to understand that we’re not fatally condemned just because we have done something wrong, even something very wrong. That’s a counsel of despair that can lead us by degrees to a truly fatal refusal to accept forgiveness and God’s love when it counts the most.

 

[EIF5A]

The question almost implies, or perhaps asks, whether being in full union with the Church is a prerequisite to salvation? The Church doesn’t teach that.

I asked because I know many Protestants (some family members), and as a convert to the Catholic Church, I have to abide by her teachings. Even if the thought of an unpleasant outcome is very distressing…

Sometimes I wonder if I can offer prayer and penance on their behalf even if they are “schismatics” or “separated brethren” so that there’s a greater chance that they’ll find and accept God’s Mercy outside of the immediate Catholic Church.

Maybe there’s a moment beyond our understanding of time near or at death where a soul can plead for forgiveness and due to ignorance, be given a chance to accept the Church established by Christ and led by the Holy Spirit.

But I don’t want to fall into delusion and presumption…

 

[Ridgerunner]

I asked because I know many Protestants (some family members), and as a convert to the Catholic Church, I have to abide by her teachings. Even if the thought of an unpleasant outcome is very distressing…

Sometimes I wonder if I can offer prayer and penance on their behalf even if they are “schismatics” or “separated brethren” so that there’s a greater chance that they’ll find and accept God’s Mercy outside of the immediate Catholic Church.

Maybe there’s a moment beyond our understanding of time near or at death where a soul can plead for forgiveness and due to ignorance, be given a chance to accept the Church established by Christ and led by the Holy Spirit.

But I don’t want to fall into delusion and presumption…

How does that saying go; that we must approach our salvation “…with fear and trembling…” In other words, presumption isn’t the ticket.

But yes, I think it wholly proper to offer prayer and penance for separated brethren, and not just them. And yes, the motivation is for their salvation, but it’s also an act of love of God. You want Him to have them, because He wants them.

But you know, there’s no Holy Eucharist in heaven. The Eucharist is just a reflection of what it will be like to be united with God, spirit-to-spirit. I’m not sure, at the death of a protestant, in which it will be all that important to accept Catholic doctrine or the truth of the Church. It will be more important to acknowledge one’s sins and accept forgiveness. The protestant disadvantage in that is (for some) that they will not have “trained” themselves to do so.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Not really…they would say that it only proves that the brain is still active for a short period of time after the heart stops…once the brain is starved of oxygen then it will die and all consciousness will fade away and we will cease to exist…but for a few minutes we may be fully aware knowing we are dead…there is no turning back…am I going to heaven…or hell…or into oblivion…just the fact for those few minutes we will know we are dead and are aware of it…that part alone has to be scary

I don’t know that it would be scary for those few minutes. It may be joyous and comforting. Maybe it depends on who and the circumstances, not necessarily the ultimate destination. Someone going to heaven could be scared during those moments before entry into heaven (purgatory). Someone going to hell could experience a sort of happiness before decending into eternal misery (hell). Of course, scary could then turn to eternal torment and joy could turn to eternal happiness during those moments as well. We just don’t know.

 

[Jake_Parker]

How does that saying go; that we must approach our salvation “…with fear and trembling…” In other words, presumption isn’t the ticket.

But yes, I think it wholly proper to offer prayer and penance for separated brethren, and not just them. And yes, the motivation is for their salvation, but it’s also an act of love of God. You want Him to have them, because He wants them.

But you know, there’s no Holy Eucharist in heaven. The Eucharist is just a reflection of what it will be like to be united with God, spirit-to-spirit. I’m not sure, at the death of a protestant, in which it will be all that important to accept Catholic doctrine or the truth of the Church. It will be more important to acknowledge one’s sins and accept forgiveness. The protestant disadvantage in that is (for some) that they will not have “trained” themselves to do so.

Some of those conservative Protestants (Calvinists, Baptists, etc) talk way more about sin and Hell than Catholics do, and make sure to remind people to avoid sin. For them, I don’t see an issue with them admitting to their sin and asking forgiveness. In fact, the only issue I see there, is that (from my experience) is they focus way more on sin, Hell, depravity, than on forgiveness, so they might not think to ask for it. Though I’m sure in the physical presence of God, most Christians will immediately ask to be forgiven.

I think those that have at least been baptized and/or are active in their faith as Protestants will absolutely be given a chance to appear before God and ask forgiveness. I don’t think he will expect everyone to be Catholic, as long as he is at the center of their life. Sure they were not part of the original church founded by Christ, but they are still Christians, and that I believe is what will matter most in the end. I would assume they’d spend more time in Purgatory, but I don’t believe they will end up in Hell.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Some of those conservative Protestants (Calvinists, Baptists, etc) talk way more about sin and Hell than Catholics do, and make sure to remind people to avoid sin. For them, I don’t see an issue with them admitting to their sin and asking forgiveness. In fact, the only issue I see there, is that (from my experience) is they focus way more on sin, Hell, depravity, than on forgiveness, so they might not think to ask for it. Though I’m sure in the physical presence of God, most Christians will immediately ask to be forgiven.

I think those that have at least been baptized and/or are active in their faith as Protestants will absolutely be given a chance to appear before God and ask forgiveness. I don’t think he will expect everyone to be Catholic, as long as he is at the center of their life. Sure they were not part of the original church founded by Christ, but they are still Christians, and that I believe is what will matter most in the end. I would assume they’d spend more time in Purgatory, but I don’t believe they will end up in Hell.

I don’t think God will expect everybody to be Catholic either.

But I will also say, as to your first point, that there are a lot more sins than drunkenness and fornication; the big Calvinist foci. There is also pride, which can be a thousand times more deadly than the sins of the flesh. Lucifer was a very, very smart angel; perhaps a billion times smarter than me. Maybe a billion times a billion. And knowing exactly what rebellion meant, and not being subject to emotional acts and distractions, his pride led him to hate God and all of creation.

 

[Jake_Parker]

I don’t think God will expect everybody to be Catholic either.

But I will also say, as to your first point, that there are a lot more sins than drunkenness and fornication; the big Calvinist foci. There is also pride, which can be a thousand times more deadly than the sins of the flesh. Lucifer was a very, very smart angel; perhaps a billion times smarter than me. Maybe a billion times a billion. And knowing exactly what rebellion meant, and not being subject to emotional acts and distractions, his pride led him to hate God and all of creation.

Agreed.

That is why in my personal view regarding the after-life, I believe at some point after dying everyone will have a chance to stand before God and choose to give up their sin or cling to it. Those that may not have specifically chosen to follow God in this life will still have that opportunity to choose him at this time, and I think some of them will.
However, going back to this pride issue, I believe many people on Earth are filled with the same pride that consumed Lucifer. Even in the presence of an eternally loving God, they will still choose to cling to their sin rather than giving it up to be with God.

When they are presented with the option of keeping their sinful behaviors/lifestyle, that will ultimately become Hell for them.

When they are presented with the option of giving up their sinful behaviors/lifestyle, some will choose to do so, because being in the presence of God those people will realize the error of their ways. This choice will ultimately become Heaven for them.

I don’t think the Eastern Orthodox view is far off from this. All people will be in God’s presence, even after making their finial decision. Those that have clung to their sin will be in the presence of God’s perfect love & holiness while sinning, and while being in his presence they will constantly feel the guilt of that choice because they are seeing God (perfect love/holiness) all the time. This will be the ultimate Hell, because unlike on Earth where they constantly sin and don’t feel anything, in the presence of God they are going to be fully aware of how terrible their choices really are, and this will forever torment them.
And of course those that have chosen to give their sins over to God will be in his presence, but it will be wonderful, because they are in God’s presence without the guilt of their sins that they have given up.

 

[TCEL]

Agreed.

That is why in my personal view regarding the after-life, I believe at some point after dying everyone will have a chance to stand before God and choose to give up their sin or cling to it. Those that may not have specifically chosen to follow God in this life will still have that opportunity to choose him at this time, and I think some of them will.
However, going back to this pride issue, I believe many people on Earth are filled with the same pride that consumed Lucifer. Even in the presence of an eternally loving God, they will still choose to cling to their sin rather than giving it up to be with God.

When they are presented with the option of keeping their sinful behaviors/lifestyle, that will ultimately become Hell for them.

When they are presented with the option of giving up their sinful behaviors/lifestyle, some will choose to do so, because being in the presence of God those people will realize the error of their ways. This choice will ultimately become Heaven for them.

I don’t think the Eastern Orthodox view is far off from this. All people will be in God’s presence, even after making their finial decision. Those that have clung to their sin will be in the presence of God’s perfect love & holiness while sinning, and while being in his presence they will constantly feel the guilt of that choice because they are seeing God (perfect love/holiness) all the time. This will be the ultimate Hell, because unlike on Earth where they constantly sin and don’t feel anything, in the presence of God they are going to be fully aware of how terrible their choices really are, and this will forever torment them.
And of course those that have chosen to give their sins over to God will be in his presence, but it will be wonderful, because they are in God’s presence without the guilt of their sins that they have given up.

I can’t remember where I heard this, but someone once suggested that shame is one of the tactics the Devil uses to try and keep us from even wanting to encounter God. Makes sense. Someone described it like being naked in the Coliseum. This image is yet another slant to the Year of Mercy. Sometimes I wonder if vulnerability is an acceptable synonym for humility in our modern day. Humility has a warped perception in our language, but vulnerability may help get the point across.

 

[Jake_Parker]

I can’t remember where I heard this, but someone once suggested that shame is one of the tactics the Devil uses to try and keep us from even wanting to encounter God. Makes sense. Someone described it like being naked in the Coliseum. This image is yet another slant to the Year of Mercy. Sometimes I wonder if vulnerability is an acceptable synonym for humility in our modern day. Humility has a warped perception in our language, but vulnerability may help get the point across.

I think being vulnerable allows one to be humble.
Vulnerability keeps us open/exposed to something (such as criticism or judgement).
Humility in part comes from the willingness to be open or exposed to things (judgement).

Being vulnerable also allows one to practice humility (seeing themselves as less important), which prevents a self-righteous attitude.

I would definitely agree that they work together, and in some ways I could see how they’d be used synonymously.

I see how this is important though. Because if we don’t practice humility, when we come before God, we won’t be willing to give up our sin because we aren’t willing to be open to the idea that it’s wrong. When he judges many people, they will be defensive and argue that what they did really wasn’t wrong/sinful. Pride, self-righteousness, greed, etc will consume them and they will reject God’s judgement. Others will be truly hear God’s judgement about their life because they are humble; willing to be judged and admit they are sinful, therefore giving up the sin to God.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Agreed.

That is why in my personal view regarding the after-life, I believe at some point after dying everyone will have a chance to stand before God and choose to give up their sin or cling to it. Those that may not have specifically chosen to follow God in this life will still have that opportunity to choose him at this time, and I think some of them will.
However, going back to this pride issue, I believe many people on Earth are filled with the same pride that consumed Lucifer. Even in the presence of an eternally loving God, they will still choose to cling to their sin rather than giving it up to be with God.

When they are presented with the option of keeping their sinful behaviors/lifestyle, that will ultimately become Hell for them.

When they are presented with the option of giving up their sinful behaviors/lifestyle, some will choose to do so, because being in the presence of God those people will realize the error of their ways. This choice will ultimately become Heaven for them.

I don’t think the Eastern Orthodox view is far off from this. All people will be in God’s presence, even after making their finial decision. Those that have clung to their sin will be in the presence of God’s perfect love & holiness while sinning, and while being in his presence they will constantly feel the guilt of that choice because they are seeing God (perfect love/holiness) all the time. This will be the ultimate Hell, because unlike on Earth where they constantly sin and don’t feel anything, in the presence of God they are going to be fully aware of how terrible their choices really are, and this will forever torment them.
And of course those that have chosen to give their sins over to God will be in his presence, but it will be wonderful, because they are in God’s presence without the guilt of their sins that they have given up.

If this is the EO view, it is different from the Catholic view. The Catholic view is that some will still feel themselves unworthy and will enter purgatory to be cleansed of it. Ste Therese, a Doctor of the Church, believed that the exposure of one’s life’s sins will be so harrowing and humbling that people would cast themselves into hell if it were not for the alternative of purgatory. All people in hell and purgatory, she believed, are volunteers, and both know what they’re doing with total clarity.

That’s all pretty sobering when one thinks about it. If I, myself, required myself to be totally cleansed of my own selfishness and self-centeredness, I think I would spend a long time in purgatory. If one really thinks about it, one can easily imagine that.

But I guess “time” is meaningless in purgatory. One guesses it’s more of a “process” and a “decision” thing rather than a “time” thing.

 

[EIF5A]

If this is the EO view, it is different from the Catholic view. The Catholic view is that some will still feel themselves unworthy and will enter purgatory to be cleansed of it. Ste Therese, a Doctor of the Church, believed that the exposure of one’s life’s sins will be so harrowing and humbling that people would cast themselves into hell if it were not for the alternative of purgatory. All people in hell and purgatory, she believed, are volunteers, and both know what they’re doing with total clarity.

That’s all pretty sobering when one thinks about it. If I, myself, required myself to be totally cleansed of my own selfishness and self-centeredness, I think I would spend a long time in purgatory. If one really thinks about it, one can easily imagine that.

But I guess “time” is meaningless in purgatory. One guesses it’s more of a “process” and a “decision” thing rather than a “time” thing.

Hmm…if we can truly see sin for what it is, I suppose it’s conceivable to be so shameful that one would want to hide from God (maybe like Adam and Eve?)…and the only existence would be in hell.

I’m not looking forward to death…