S
sedonaman
Guest
Are you sure you aren’t trying to solve a temporary problem with a permanent solution?
There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?
- Status
T
tonyrey
Guest
If metaphysical naturalism is true the statement “metaphysical naturalism is true” is meaningless - as I’m sure you will agree. So it would be a pointless “for the sake of argument”.
P
Perplexity
Guest
Its meaning is derivative of an ethical theory which exists on either naturalism or theism. For an action to be morally forbidden is for any S forbidden to perform the action to be so forbidden because of the moral status of the action. Note, the action’s moral status might include the moral status of its consequences or the intentions of the agent etc.
T
tonyrey
Guest
I will spare philosophical musings for the moment and address this question from a very personal perspective.
It’s hard to admit it, but I have been both that patient and that shrink to myself, and there is nothing that could have been said by anyone, from an atheistic view, that could change those feelings. Atheism is a philosophy that is only healthily sustainable in the most ideal of settings; economic, emotional, psychological, and so on. I don’t find it a coincidence that the percentage of atheists in my country is roughly analogous to the percentage of the super rich. Not to say that the two consist of the same individuals, but that the number of people whose hereditary fortune, fiscal and/or genetic, allow them to lead such charmed lives as to feel numb to the need for something greater than ourselves is something of a biological corollary to those who hit (or inherit) the capitalist jackpot. Compare an atheist at Yale to an atheist in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans, and you’ll see the difference I’m underscoring here. I’ve known atheists of both breeds. Inevitably,the man whose lot in life is not so appealing is nearly guaranteed to have a much more negative, cynical, self destructive and even criminal worldview than his well fed, well bred counterpart in the Ivy League. Contrast this to the poor folk, many whom I’ve known, coming from a very lower class background, who despite the horrific and violent circumstances that surround them, keep faith and trust in God, and manage to live such humble and holy lives, and be so full of love, compassion and wisdom. Any one of these people makes a better case for the existence of God than any theologian or philosopher can present for or against.
Sorry for the rant. I just felt the need to get that out.
It’s not a rant but a superb analysis which corresponds to the fact that there is a large proportion of atheists in Sweden with one of the highest standards of living in the world.
A
Arizona_Mike
Guest
Because certainly, the atheists, who comprise less than 7% of the American population(1), NEVER stoop to stereotyping Christians or their beliefs…Oh sure, cause it’s not like there’s any nastiness or anger on CAF.
I’d thank you not to rudely stereotype such a large and diverse group of people.
(1) gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx
A
Arizona_Mike
Guest
Atheists in Sweden are in the minority (23% believe in no god), putting them just behind the behind the even more godless Estonians and Czechs. 76% of Swedes believe either in God, a spirit, or a “life force,” which puts them outside the pale of atheism.
North Korea, which is predominately atheist, has one of the lowest standards of living in the world.
P
Perplexity
Guest
I’m not sure how these statistics are supposed to effect arguments for or against God. Do they weaken premises or something? Or maybe I’ve misunderstood their purpose.
S
sedonaman
Guest
If metaphysical naturalism is true the statement “metaphysical naturalism is true” is meaningless - as I’m sure you will agree. So it would be a pointless “for the sake of argument”.
So metaphysical naturalism is something that one must take on faith since we cannot observe the absence [or presence] of anything outside the natural world. Did Sagan ever prove his statement?
A
Arizona_Mike
Guest
I would note also that while not large, atheists are a somewhat diverse group of people. You have positivists of the Sam Harris / Richard Dawkins school, who seem to constitute the majority of American and British atheists, in that they espouse an essentially Christian viewpoint of morality while denying its origins. But you also have Ayn Rand objectivists with their golden dollar sign brooches, you have hardcore Marxist/Leninists, you have the “anything goes” followers of Michael Onfrey and de Sade, the oldschool bat-crazy followers of Madlyn Murray O’Hair, as well as those who just aren’t interested in religion and don’t care, who rarely post on Internet forums. Much variation there, in your 7% atheist subculture.Oh sure, cause it’s not like there’s any nastiness or anger on CAF.
I’d thank you not to rudely stereotype such a large and diverse group of people.
You’re seemingly united only in your disbelief in God, and the afterlife, and the supernatural. Except when you’re not. Sam Harris has said he believes in the possibility of reincarnation. The authoritative Pew Forum study of the American religious landscape (religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report2-religious-landscape-study-full.pdf), which found only about 6% of Americans are atheists, nevertheless found that 8% of self-identified atheists are “absolutely certain” there is a God. 5% of atheists are “absolutely certain” there is life after death, with 8% being “fairly certain.” What does THAT mean?
It could mean that some people who say they are atheists aren’t really sure what the term means. It could mean that they believe in God, but are actually “anti-theists” and don’t like Him. It could mean that there are some jokers out there who like to liven up a survey (my father-in-law always tells pollsters that he is a member of the party he doesn’t like, then takes the craziest positions he can in response to the survey questions). Or it could just mean that some atheists are clueless people.
If my comments seemed uncharitable to you, I apologize. I wasn’t attacking you or atheists as a whole as people and who were created in the image of Christ, I was just mocking your beliefs, which is acceptable.
As a famous Catholic author (Evelyn Waugh) once said when a woman at a party said he was very uncharitable for a Christian, he replied, “Madam, if it wasn’t for the Faith, I would barely be human.”
T
tonyrey
Guest
Waugh was notorious for his rudeness which rode roughshod over the feelings of others… He was hardly exemplary. :nope:
A
Arizona_Mike
Guest
It really doesn’t prove anything, Perplexity, except that many atheists like “Science” but aren’t very good at “Math.” (And if it doesn’t involve math, and probably an engineer, it’s probably not “Science”.)
Pointing to countries with high or low crime problems or imprisonment, or states with high or low levels of educational achievement, or high or low levels of economic success or social welfare, and then trying to ascribe them to the level of atheism in that country, is a mug’s game. There are so many other factors to consider in any such calculation (history, criminal justice system, demographics, immigration, etc.) that any attempted correlation is meaningless.
And, atheism is in a minority in most every country. (Yes, even the Scandinavian ones.) The only countries where atheism is in a majority are not countries you would want to use to show any positive outcomes from atheism.
We can look at individual factors of welfare, and find some more useful correlations - medical metastudies routinely show a high correlation between religious belief and religiosity, and mental/physical/emotional health,lack of substance abuse, lack of depression and mental illness, higher sexual satisfaction, and so forth. We can also look at individual crimes of violence, and see a much higher proportion of atheists than one would expect from their rather low prevalence in society. That may be statistically relevant as well. It doesn’t mean individual atheists are bad people, of course, but it can indicate some of the problems attendant on an atheist worldview.
A
Arizona_Mike
Guest
But, dang, the man could write.
How bad would he have been if he wasn’t Catholic? (Kind of my point.)
T
tonyrey
Guest
I agree but how much more influential he would have been if he had been more considerate. He didn’t exactly endear Catholicism to non-Catholics!
P
prodigalson2011
Guest
Atheism is still far more prevalent in Sweden and the Netherlands than most places.
As for North Korea, it is important to note that that country is under the rule of a despotic, totalitarian nutjob whose government actively persecutes religious people. Atheism is pretty much de facto enforced, so most people probably toe the party line to keep themselves from being brutalized and imprisoned.
The same was true for a long time of Estonia and Czechoslovakia (I personally knew a man who fled Czechoslovakia to escape persecution), so again the tacit assent to atheism in those countries is probably largely artificial or indoctrinated through fear.
Cultural background is a very important consideration to be made in these observations.
spectator.org/archives/2010/12/09/religious-persecution-in-north
sodahead.com/united-states/czechs-compensate-christian-churches-for-atheist-persecution-good-move/question-2391237/
nbrp.com/?p=4
S
Simon123454321
Guest
Depression is a condtion, when severe has a symtoms of hopelessness that may lead to suicidal ideation.
Leading a meaningless life is a choice. If the patient enjoys being depressed as many existential philosophers do, then he can select a lifestyle that promotes aloneness, avoid behaviors that would increase self-esteem, select a job that promotes monotony, etc.
Alternatively, if the patient is not happy with being depressed he could make lifestyle changes that may include taking medications that would help reduce the feelings of hopelessness and suicidal ideation and move towards health and hapiness.
I find that many of these posts confuse athiesm with the belief that there are no natural laws that exist in the universe at all. Do athiests not belive in gravity, objects in motion, interpersonal consequences for choices made, etc? Whether God exists or not, and I believe that he does, just using natural law works in these situations.
The bottom line is the patient is there because they want to live. If they wanted to die, they woudl be dead. It is not that hard to end ones life, yet the vast majority of people who even attempt to kill themselves, don’t. They want to live, just do not see a vialbe way around whatever is in the way of happiness. If they can plot a path for how to achieve happiness, then the wish to end it all becomes a non-issue.
Leading a meaningless life is a choice. If the patient enjoys being depressed as many existential philosophers do, then he can select a lifestyle that promotes aloneness, avoid behaviors that would increase self-esteem, select a job that promotes monotony, etc.
Alternatively, if the patient is not happy with being depressed he could make lifestyle changes that may include taking medications that would help reduce the feelings of hopelessness and suicidal ideation and move towards health and hapiness.
I find that many of these posts confuse athiesm with the belief that there are no natural laws that exist in the universe at all. Do athiests not belive in gravity, objects in motion, interpersonal consequences for choices made, etc? Whether God exists or not, and I believe that he does, just using natural law works in these situations.
The bottom line is the patient is there because they want to live. If they wanted to die, they woudl be dead. It is not that hard to end ones life, yet the vast majority of people who even attempt to kill themselves, don’t. They want to live, just do not see a vialbe way around whatever is in the way of happiness. If they can plot a path for how to achieve happiness, then the wish to end it all becomes a non-issue.
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
If you don’t have a parent, wife, children, etc. to whom you may cause suffering, there is no reason not commit suicide. Not only if you are depressed, but for everyone.
You could do what a lot of people do- find or construct a purpose in the pursuit of money, power, pleasure.
Or (even without ‘believing’) you could start to you interpret the wretchedness of your life in terms of Christ- to see a self-realisation in carrying one’s proverbial Cross. To use a ‘myth’ as an interpretive device to construct meaning.
V
VeritasLuxMea
Guest
- I am Catholic. (Pertains to one of your later posts, not this one that I’m quoting)
- Percentage of atheists in the country has nothing to do with what we were discussing.
- Whether or not some atheists are guilty of the same behavior (stereotyping) is, as you’re aware, inconsequential.
- I have no problem with you “attacking my beliefs” (as you put it in a later post), so I hope you similarly have no problem with me doing likewise as regards your belief that atheists are “angry” people.
T
ThinkingSapien
Guest
I’ve had friends that in the past were considering bringing about an end to their life to bring about an end to their suffering. In all cases I ended up appealing to their connection to loved ones as temporary motivation for postponing their demise while the source of the suffering was addressed. I’m not a mental health specialist, but I did get the assistance of one for one of the cases. He was Jewish, the friend was a non-denominational Christian, and I don’t practice any religion.That didn’t cause any conflicts in trying to help this person.
In another case from years ago a friend wanted to just die so that she didn’t have to go through chemo and radiation treatment. She’s Catholic, and like the earlier mentioned case connections to loved ones to get her to postpone action. That’s not the same as changing her mind on the matter though. But it was enough to get her to the point where the treatment could be reduced so that she found life more tolerable. I’m glad to say she is relatively fine now. Had the need for chemo lasted long enough I think her tolerance for suffering would have been exhausted and it would have been a loosing battle.
T
ThinkingSapien
Guest
Adding onto what I posted earlier, on the drive into work I was talking to a friend and ran a similar scenario by her. “If some one you knew was suffering and decided that he or she wanted to end it all how would you respond to that person.”
I thought I was submitting a hypothetical question to her, but she is dealing with the situation right now. I know she is a non-denominational Christian and that her friend is also a Christian (not sure what denomination, though I know he’s not Catholic). She’s also been reminding the friend of how his death would impact loved ones. But she doesn’t see that as a long term solution either. This person’s conditions have been continually worsening over the past several years and her concern is that if things don’t turn around he may loose the ability to cope with what’s going on. She said the friend acknowledged that it was selfish to want to end ones life. But it seems that the continual pressure is causing more weight to be given to self consideration than to consideration of the friends and loved ones.
I thought I was submitting a hypothetical question to her, but she is dealing with the situation right now. I know she is a non-denominational Christian and that her friend is also a Christian (not sure what denomination, though I know he’s not Catholic). She’s also been reminding the friend of how his death would impact loved ones. But she doesn’t see that as a long term solution either. This person’s conditions have been continually worsening over the past several years and her concern is that if things don’t turn around he may loose the ability to cope with what’s going on. She said the friend acknowledged that it was selfish to want to end ones life. But it seems that the continual pressure is causing more weight to be given to self consideration than to consideration of the friends and loved ones.
P
Perplexity
Guest
I see ThinkingSapien, those are very difficult situations to be in. I hope it all works out for the best.
I don’t believe that suicide is per se wrong. It seems to me that it’s wrong only when it’s in situations where duties to others like spouses or children (etc.) would be neglected. But, if you’re in no such obligations, it seems to me people have the right to end their life if they wish.
I don’t believe that suicide is per se wrong. It seems to me that it’s wrong only when it’s in situations where duties to others like spouses or children (etc.) would be neglected. But, if you’re in no such obligations, it seems to me people have the right to end their life if they wish.
- Status