There Is No Such Thing As Evil

[PJM]

with free will, if we only believe in a material universe, one of mathematical determinism, than one has no free will.

free will is completely dependent on the existence of a G-d.

FREE ADVICE

We can say that there is no “white” (right) unless of course one say’s so.

We can say there is no "black: (wrong) unless we persoanlly determine it to be.

But one might not wish to pretend that there is No Hell:thumbsup: What if your wrong?

PJM m.c.

 

[grandfather]

When we speak of spiritual realities, things we can not see, we always have difficulty with conprehension.

Before we get to good and evil, think about love, or love and hate.

Love is something that we can not see or weigh or measure. I can not hold it in my hand and feel it. It has no shape such as flat or square or round. It is not a physical reality that would have physical dimensions and properties. If it exists at all then, it exists outside the world of matter. If it exists outside the world of matter it is not a physical reality. If it is not a physical reality and yet exists it is a spiritual reality.

Good it the same thing, or evil, if it exists.

When we try to comprehend or underestand things we can not see we try to use analogies to compare them to things we can see. So Jesus says, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a farmer who sowed seed, or a housewife who lost a coin, or a sherpherd who lost a sheep, or a king who was preparing a feast. We relate things we know of to things unseen.

Light and darkness are physcial realities and also can be used analogically. Light drives away darkness. But does darkness exist? What darkness is, is the absence of light. Where light is darkness can not be. Darkness can not drive away light, but light reveals what is present, to those who see.

What evil is, is the absence of good. Jesus says, only God is good. Where God is, where good is, evil can not be. It is like darkness that flees from light. Light never flees from darkness.

All analogies break down at some point. None are perfect, but we can use them to understand the unseen things that exist.

 

[Swan]

Popularity is overrated, but I appreciate your thoughts. I disagree with your conclusion that it must somehow be man’s fault, because I had nothing to do with the fall of Adam and Eve, so why should I have to suffer for it?

Yikes! I think you misunderstood me. I don’t believe in God or the “fall”, I was putting forth my theory of why Christians couldn’t blame God for evil (God, being perfect, would never indulge in evil) so with that ruled out, and evil a definite reality, they could only blame themselves (mankind). In an attempt to rationalize this belief, they came up with the idea of the “fall”.

 

[jkiernan56]

Yikes! I think you misunderstood me. I don’t believe in God or the “fall”, I was putting forth my theory of why Christians couldn’t blame God for evil (God, being perfect, would never indulge in evil) so with that ruled out, and evil a definite reality, they could only blame themselves (mankind). In an attempt to rationalize this belief, they came up with the idea of the “fall”.

And who do you blame for the evil YOU do? Or do you deny that YOU do any evil and that everything you do is good?

 

[PJM]

Free will is not at all dependent on the existence of a god. If we think of free will as merely the ability to choose a course of action, gods are removed from the equation. I choose courses of actions every day, and then act on those decisions. Explain to me where a god comes into it.

Reply;

So my dear friend in Christ,

What a convient philosopy of life. “From your lips to God’s ears” that it be true. Oh!, and just how many “gods” are there? Why so many? Are your “god’s” of limited powers:shrug: Mine is NOT

So there exist on planet earth at least several thousand varities of “living creatures?” Animals, birds, fish ect.right?

So all of them have an intellect and free-will? Hmmmm

The bible tell’s us “that we are made in the image and likeness of God.” So God is a SPIRIT, with free will and an intellect. So are we "spirit’s or do we have a body (by the way, we don’t own it, it’s just on loan to us)?

So then we must be like God in having an intellect which would be completly senseless and useless without an accompaning ability to use it. Agree? There is no other posible explaination! That ability to use and apply ones** intellect** , we term **"free-will!:**thumbsup: /COLOR]

So if we have an “**intellect,” **then we also (MUST HAVE) a free will! Ya can’t have one without the other

And if this is true, and obviously it is. The next question is why of all of God’s creatures ( I assume that you accept some theory of creation?) do only Human Sapiens have a intellect and a free will.

There must exist a reason. The odds of coincidience are TRILLIONS to ONE! So what does the application your intellect and free-will, tell you?

Here’s a hint: “Free will” isn’t FREE

God be with you and bless you my dear friend in Christ!

PJM m.c.

 

[Dameedna]

You can’t blame God for giving us free will

Um…if he created us, then yes we can “blame” god for giving us free will. Didn’t he make us in the first place?

he did not make robots.

Exactly, he made humans with a will of their own, and yes I “blame” him for this.

God allows Satan to tempt us because we have to choose good freely. Life is a test. We have a free choice to accept God and goodness, or reject God and commit evil.

So for free will to exist, there has to be a nasty temptation to test our free will.

Thanks God, you’re such a pal.

The mere fact that we are free to choose does not make God responsible for our misdeeds.

If God created us, knowing what we would do, then yes God is fundamentally responsible for all of it, including his decision to create us and create us with free will.

Not all of us give your God a “get out of jail free” card when it comes to his choices and responsibilities.

 

[wcknight]

Um…if he created us, then yes we can “blame” god for giving us free will. Didn’t he make us in the first place?

Exactly, he made humans with a will of their own, and yes I “blame” him for this.

So for free will to exist, there has to be a nasty temptation to test our free will.

Thanks God, you’re such a pal.

If God created us, knowing what we would do, then yes God is fundamentally responsible for all of it, including his decision to create us and create us with free will.

Not all of us give your God a “get out of jail free” card when it comes to his choices and responsibilities.

You can’t have it both ways, you either have robots who do everything right all the time or you have free will and folks chose right or wrong on their own.

With that choice, there are consequences. IF you choose evil there may be pain or suffering both yourself and maybe to others.

With our free will He offers us the grace to do good and forgiveness IF we fail. It is up to us to accept the grace to do good AND also up to us to accept forgiveness if we fail. Again it is OUR choice not God’s. He does not force anyone to accept Him or His forgiveness.

God does not force anyone to love Him. One of the most profond lines in teh movies if when God (aka Morgan Freeman) tells Bruce (Jin Carrey) that He can’t force folks to love Him.

You choose Heaven or Hell, good or evil. Otherwise you might as well be a robot. Part of you being human and free is being able to make your own choices. To blame God is just silly and convoluted.

We all have responsilbility for our own actions. PLUS we have the added safety net that if we fail all we have to do is ask for forgiveness. God offers it freely, all you have to do, is say yes you accept it. You can’t be any more fair than that.

Anyone who goes to H*** chooses to do so on their own. IF you really want to go there, God is not going to force you into Heaven. IF you don’t want to be with God, you won’t. It’s really that simple.

IF someone chooses evil, the fault is not God’s but the individuals. IF someone does not want to be forgiven, that does not make God evil.

One of the controversial heresies of Calvinists is the idea of predestination. This is the theory that God knows from conception whether or not someone is saved even before they live their lives.

Personally I think this is completely wrong (and I think the Church teaches that this is wrong also). IF this theory is true, then one might legitimately say that it is cruel to even create a person if they are predestined for eternal damnation.

I believe God gives everyone the potential and means to be saved. God does not control all our thoughts or all our actions. He chooses not to. For the most part we do. We are the masters of our own destinies (at least in terms of Heaven or H***). And for me (and I think for most folks) that is the way it should be.

 

[Dameedna]

Nothing in your repeating argument, acknowledges that the creation of humans with free will and the consquence of hell…is God’s doing. God chose to create humans with free will, and knew they would end up in hell. There’s no getting around this.

You cannot get away from the foundation of your argument.

Our existance, and it’s repurcusions are Gods choice by the very act of creation. He didn’t HAVE to make us.

This is not a loving God.It may be your belief, but it is not love.

 

[grandfather]

This is not a loving God.It may be your belief, but it is not love.

What is love?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Nothing in your repeating argument, acknowledges that the creation of humans with free will and the consquence of hell…is God’s doing. God chose to create humans with free will, and knew they would end up in hell. There’s no getting around this.

You cannot get away from the foundation of your argument.

Our existance, and it’s repurcusions are Gods choice by the very act of creation. He didn’t HAVE to make us.

This is not a loving God.It may be your belief, but it is not love.

ok, do you not have children because you know that some of them may make bad choices and wind up in prison?

is it later your fault then that they made bad decisions?

or are they responsible for their own actions?

no, it would seem that argument is a fallacy

 

[Swan]

And who do you blame for the evil YOU do? Or do you deny that YOU do any evil and that everything you do is good?

I certainly don’t deny the existence of evil, though in some ways “evil” is relative (i.e., I think artificial birth control is a great idea while some see it as “evil”). I’m not blaming God for evil because I don’t believe in God. Man is responsible for what man does. The difference is that I don’t believe there is an all powerful, loving God who has the power to step in and stop it, so I don’t have to do a mental tap dance to relieve him of blame or responsibility. It simply is what it is.

 

[wcknight]

Which would you rather have, free will or automotons ??

Do you allow your children to grow and be independent or do you force them to follow your will without question ?

Yes, God made all things and yes He gave us free will. Having the possibility of disobedience and evil are necessarily a result of free will, but the alternatives are much worse. Love has to be freely given from both sides. Neither side can force the other to love them.

Just because you do not love God does not make God evil. You can be a loving parent but the child does not necesarily have to return your love. And if they don’t, that does not make you evil.

You can do everything right but IF your child becomes evil that does not mean you were not a loving parent.

Take away free will and what’s the point ? Everything will go as scripted, love becomes mandatory and that is not love. It may be obedience but it cerrtainly is not love. Would you want to be with someone who is forced to obey you ? Would you love someone who forces you to love them ? Love can not exist, if it is not freely given.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Nothing in your repeating argument, acknowledges that the creation of humans with free will and the consquence of hell…is God’s doing. God chose to create humans with free will, and knew they would end up in hell. There’s no getting around this.

You cannot get away from the foundation of your argument.

Our existance, and it’s repurcusions are Gods choice by the very act of creation. He didn’t HAVE to make us.

This is not a loving God.It may be your belief, but it is not love.

What keeps you from accepting that God is love? Is it that your suffering means that God didn’t create the world without suffering, and He is therefore evil, if He exists, which you can’t accept for “psychological reasons” (as it’s just as “provable” that He is evil as that He is nonexistent) and therefore conclude that He is nonexistent?

Your non-understanding of God’s “time”, His existence in His eternity, is your basic error.

I don’t claim to understand the particulars of God’s “time”, but I understand that His “time” allows both human/angelic free will and God’s goodness to exist simultaneously.

As with all atheists, and badly catechized so-called believers, you get the order of reality backwards.

First one accepts God and then proofs of Him come, instead of looking for proofs of Him so that you can accept Him.

Evil exists because we can choose to do evil. Evil is a sub-creation of man/demons, which is allowed by the gift of free will to these creatures by God.

:shamrock2:

 

[PJM]

Um…if he created us, then yes we can “blame” god for giving us free will. Didn’t he make us in the first place?

“If He Creates us?” If by "He"you mean God? If 'He didn’t create us how did we get here?

As for blaming God for our gift of a “free-will.” If I give you a car and fill the tank with gas, do you (an example only) HAVE TO drivedrunk and kill someone.

No you don’t. in this case free will (and it would not be “FREE” if God influenced you to do evil or bad things) was used by personal choice, and personal decessions in error. That my friend is pricsely why God teamed up His GIFT of a “free-will” with an “FREE-INTELLECT” to allow you to make good decessions.(But God also allows YOU to decide NOT TO!)

God is, has to be “All Good” and is unable, simply can’t do any bad or evil act. You have God and his competitation mixed up.

Let me see if I am able to clarify any of your concerns.

2 tim. 2: 7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will grant you understanding in everything. (my note: maybe?)

Mt. 25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; 26 yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.2 All things have been delivered to me by my Father; **and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. **

Exactly, he made humans with a will of their own, and yes I “blame” him for this.

I’m tempted to tell you soooo, “just give it back to God.” That’s what the Saints have done! The gifts of “free-will and intellect” (ya can’t have one without the other) are given to us so that "we might Know, Love and SERVE God in this eorld, so that we can be happy with Him in the next.! Pertty cool huh?

So for free will to exist, there has to be a nasty temptation to test our free will.

Nooooo, God’s gift to us is bundled in a single package= “free-will + intellect.” Two gifts, one package!!!

Thanks God, you’re such a pal.

Well we are finally in agreement on something. WOW:thumbsup:

If God created us, knowing what we would do, then yes God is fundamentally responsible for all of it, including his decision to create us and create us with free will.

Listen closely here… “Knowing and Causing or Doing” are as far apart as the East is from the West.

It makes absolutely NO sense for God to GIFT us with our free-will + intellect, If God intended to make our decessions for us. Don’t blame God for SIN! That’s silly! It’s the other guy we “tag-team” with, not God. Think, my friend that is why God included an intellect with our free-will.

Not all of us give your God a “get out of jail free” card when it comes to his choices and responsibilities.

Good point, as I have pointed out above in this OP: God’s “gifts” come wrapped with strings attached. To know, to Love and to serve WHO? God of course

Don’t try to blame God for your own mistakes. it’s convient, but that’s about all.

God bless you my friend!

PJM m.c.

 

[jkiernan56]

Um…if he created us, then yes we can “blame” god for giving us free will. Didn’t he make us in the first place?

Exactly, he made humans with a will of their own, and yes I “blame” him for this.

Thanks God, you’re such a pal.

If God created us, knowing what we would do, then yes God is fundamentally responsible for all of it, including his decision to create us and create us with free will.

Not all of us give your God a “get out of jail free” card when it comes to his choices and responsibilities.

Dameedna - why stop only at blaming God for giving us a free will? Why not also blame God for giving us a brain and the ability to know and think??? It appears you should be equally upset at God for this as well. Have you ever considered getting a Labotomy?

 

[benedictus2]

So one of the things I was taught growing up is that Satan cannot act without God’s permission. This comes from the story of Job. So, I got to thinking about it and if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then that means that God is responsible for all evil.

Now, I’m also told that nothing God does is bad or evil and is always righteous, no matter what he does.

So logically, if nothing God does is evil, and Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then that means that nothing is evil, even though technically the actions are done by Satan and his minions but of course it is impossible for him to do anything without God’s permission.

True, God does permit the devil to tempt us. But the evil is not in the termptation, it is in the response.

A woman can tempt a man to adultery as much as she likes, but until the man acts on his lust, he has done nothing evil. The woman however, has commited evil by doing the tempting, purposely doing her utmost to lead someone to evil and has thus participated in the devil’s own work.

There is evil. The only ones who claim otherwise are those who want to delude themselves, commit the evil and refuse responsibility. And these call psychopaths and sociopaths.

 

[Dameedna]

ok, do you not have children because you know that some of them may make bad choices and wind up in prison?

We are not talking about prison here. We are not talking about 20 years in Jail.

We are talking about an eternal punishment, not a temporary one.

is it later your fault then that they made bad decisions?

I believe that all human actions are a result of personal will combined with societal influence. Not every culture has the same understanding of justice that we do. We have, for MANY years held people completely 100% responsible for their actions.

It didn’t matter, that a person who killed, was abused mentally, physically and spiritually. They did a bad thing and they should be punished.

I have ADD. As a result of my brain I struggle to control impulses. In a different age, I would have had “the devil” beaten out of me. This was not justice it was ignorance.

Yes, if my child did something wrong, I would look to my life and wonder what I could have done differently. Most parents will do the same. You can’t remove responsibility completely, but by golly you MUST analyze your own mistakes to understand their impact on others.

Otherwise, why try and be good toward others in the first place?

or are they responsible for their own actions?

Yes, and I am responsible for wether or not I taught them that. Did I?

no, it would seem that argument is a fallacy

Fallacy? how so? Do you look at the world in a way where all you see is what is wrong with it? What other people are doing that is bad?

Or do you look to yourself first, and wonder if you have also made a mistake.

If a child of mine ends up in Jail, I will have no doubt, that I’ve done something wrong.

 

[Dameedna]

Dameedna - why stop only at blaming God for giving us a free will? Why not also blame God for giving us a brain and the ability to know and think??? It appears you should be equally upset at God for this as well. Have you ever considered getting a Labotomy?

Of course I blame god for giving us a brain. Who else did it?

Of course I blame God for giving us the ability to think? Who else did it?

What is actually wrong with blaming God for this? Is there something wrong with our brains? is there something wrong with our ability to think? Not sure why you would have a problem with this, but if there IS a god, it is certainly his doing. Who else would we blame?

If God made us, then he made us self-aware, he gave us will and he knew what we’d do with it. And yet he created us anyway, with the knowlege of where we’d end up.

Oh yes…he did it so we’d CHOOSE to love him. Look at that a little more closely shall we?

God wanted humans to freely love him. Because of his DESIRE to have creatures freely love him, he had to give us free will. In doing so, he decided that his NEED to be loved was all important to HIM and that even though humans would choose not to love him(and end up in hell) his NEED to be loved was more important than the suffering of those children who would choose the wrong path.

There is no getting around the choice that God made.

 

[Dameedna]

What keeps you from accepting that God is love?

I have no problem accepting God is Love.

But let’s be clear on this…

You and I will not agree on what is love.

You and I will not agree on what is justice.

Nor will we agree on what is truth.

I don’t have a problem with God. He is not the problem.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

We are not talking about prison here. We are not talking about 20 years in Jail.