There Is No Such Thing As Evil

[jkiernan56]

Of course I blame god for giving us a brain. Who else did it?

Of course I blame God for giving us the ability to think? Who else did it?

What is actually wrong with blaming God for this? Is there something wrong with our brains? is there something wrong with our ability to think? Not sure why you would have a problem with this, but if there IS a god, it is certainly his doing. Who else would we blame?

If God made us, then he made us self-aware, he gave us will and he knew what we’d do with it. And yet he created us anyway, with the knowlege of where we’d end up.

Oh yes…he did it so we’d CHOOSE to love him. Look at that a little more closely shall we?

God wanted humans to freely love him. Because of his DESIRE to have creatures freely love him, he had to give us free will. In doing so, he decided that his NEED to be loved was all important to HIM and that even though humans would choose not to love him(and end up in hell) his NEED to be loved was more important than the suffering of those children who would choose the wrong path.

There is no getting around the choice that God made.

God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) does not have ANY NEED for us to love Him. If God had any need, He wouldn’t be God because He would be lacking in something. (Pardon me for the sexist language, but I refer to God as He because Christ taught us to call God our Father. And in society we still refer to Fathers with the word He). Back to the issue - God did not create the world or us because of a NEED, but because God is LOVE and at the very heart of love is the desire to share what you have with others for their happiness. I totally agree with your statement that “Because of his DESIRE (not need - my words) to have creatures freely love him, he had to give us free will.” Exactly!!! You hit the nail right on the head. Love cannot exist without free-will. For free-will to truly exist, we truly have to have the ability to make choices. Consequently, if human beings really do have the ability to make choices (without being controlled by God like puppets on a string), then the possibility exists that we really could make choices that would reject what is good (according to God) and choose what is evil (the negation of good). But God sent His Son (the 2nd person of the Trinity) to become a human being like us to die on the cross for us in order to pay the penalty for our sins and free us from slavery to sin in order to restore human nature (us) back to what He originally intended. Sadly as you point out, even though God invites us to this new life, there are those who reject this free gift and subsequently (because of the choices THEY make and not God making choices for them) they choose Hell (an eternal rejection of goodness and God). It is very important to be clear on this - God does NOT send anyone to Hell. People go to hell because they reject what is good (God) and choose to embrace evil and as a result go to Hell. No one could go to heaven if the possibility did not exist for some also to go to Hell. But I already know the objection that comes up in your mind - then why didn’t God just create those He knew would only choose what is good and would go to heaven? I don’t have all the answers … but one thing I do know is that free-will would not REALLY and TRULY be free-will unless God let the cat out of the bag and respected our choices. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” Matthew 23:37

By the way, I was not trying to be disrespectful when I made the comment earlier about have you ever considered getting a Labotomy. I was trying to inject a little humor into the conversation, but I’m sure it could be misunderstood.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I have no problem accepting God is Love.

But let’s be clear on this…

You and I will not agree on what is love.

You and I will not agree on what is justice.

Nor will we agree on what is truth.

I don’t have a problem with God. He is not the problem.

so what definitions do you want to use?

as an analogy can you go to work and tell the boss what his policies should be? of course not

in the same way G-d is separate from how you would like to see the world, your definitions do not define his policies so to speak.

and if G-d is not the problem, than what is?

 

[Dameedna]

God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) does not have ANY NEED for us to love Him. If God had any need, He wouldn’t be God because He would be lacking in something. Back to the issue - God did not create the world or us because of a NEED, but because God is LOVE and at the very heart of love is the desire to share what you have with others for their happiness.

This is totally fine, and most humans regardless of belief, can probably feel some warmth toward that.

I totally agree with your statement that “Because of his DESIRE (not need - my words) to have creatures freely love him, he had to give us free will.” Exactly!!! You hit the nail right on the head. Love cannot exist without free-will.

That’s right. God desired free love. He created it, according to your doctrine, knowing it would cause humans to reject it.

He still chose to create us, he still chose to give us free will and he knew all along that his “lovable” humans would suffer, for ETERNITY!!

His “desire” for chosen love is more important than the humans he proclaims to love.

For free-will to truly exist, we truly have to have the ability to make choices.

And, got gave us that ability, knowing people would make the wrong choices. Knowing we would choose eternal damnation.

Why on earth would you ever choose to create a creature, that would choose an eternal suffering?

Consequently, if human beings really do have the ability to make choices (without being controlled by God like puppets on a string), then the possibility exists that we really could make choices that would reject what is good (according to God) and choose what is evil (the negation of good). But God sent His Son (the 2nd person of the Trinity) to become a human being like us to die on the cross for us in order to pay the penalty for our sins and free us from slavery to sin in order to restore human nature (us) back to what He originally intended. Sadly as you point out, even though God invites us to this new life, there are those who reject this free gift and subsequently (because of the choices THEY make and not God making choices for them) they choose Hell (an eternal rejection of goodness and God). It is very important to be clear on this - God does NOT send anyone to Hell. People go to hell because they reject what is good (God) and choose to embrace evil and as a result go to Hell. No one could go to heaven if the possibility did not exist for some also to go to Hell. But I already know the objection that comes up in your mind - then why didn’t God just create those He knew would only choose what is good and would go to heaven? I don’t have all the answers … but one thing I do know is that free-will would not REALLY and TRULY be free-will unless God let the cat out of the bag and respected our choices. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” Matthew 23:37

By the way, I was not trying to be disrespectful when I made the comment earlier about have you ever considered getting a Labotomy. I was trying to inject a little humor into the conversation, but I’m sure it could be misunderstood.

You seem to be under the impression I don’t understand all of this.

I do.

 

[Dameedna]

so what definitions do you want to use?

as an analogy can you go to work and tell the boss what his policies should be? of course not

My boss, consistantly listens to his employees and asks for their advice.A good boss, is never a dictator.

Bad analogy on your part I think

in the same way G-d is separate from how you would like to see the world, your definitions do not define his policies so to speak.

I’m not talking about God. I’m talking about religions and the people who teach them.

There is a difference between the humans who teach a religious belief , and God.

and if G-d is not the problem, than what is?

Human understanding of him.

Everything you tell me about God, is your view of god. It isn’t “actually” god. It’s just you

 

[jkiernan56]

Why on earth would you ever choose to create a creature, that would choose an eternal suffering?

That you’ll have to take up with God. The reality is that God knows all things even before they came to be and knows all eternity because it is already NOW to God, chose to create us with free-will. Only God truly knows the consequences of His actions. And my guess is that God already knowing the result made the choice to do so. The benefits outweighed the risks? Whatever is the final result of God’s plan, I believe the whole human race from the beginning of time to the end will stand before His Holiness and see the answer to your question. No one will be able to charge God with being unjust. Remember no one goes to eternal suffering but by their own choice(s). It is not God’s doing, but theirs. God chose to give us free will knowing the consequences. I accept that He knows what He is doing. More important for me is to look into my own heart and allow God to shine His truth. Ouch!! That can be very painful but at the same time very healing and humbling. I would much rather experience this pain, then the pain that will result if I don’t take responsibility for my own actions.

19 "Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. 21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? 24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. 25 "Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! "

Ezekiel 18:19-32

 

[Dameedna]

That you’ll have to take up with God. The reality is that God knows all things even before they came to be and knows all eternity because it is already NOW to God, chose to create us with free-will. Only God truly knows the consequences of His actions. And my guess is that God already knowing the result made the choice to do so. The benefits outweighed the risks?

Who is actually benefiting from this deal? US, or God?

Whatever is the final result of God’s plan, I believe the whole human race from the beginning of time to the end will stand before the Holiness of God and see the answer to your question. No one will be able to charge God with being unjust.

They already have. For some reason, they’ve turned God into a monster.

 

[jkiernan56]

Who is actually benefiting from this deal? Us or God?

Both us and God - but Christ says woe to those (including us) who do not turn away from sin. The consequence will be more pain (in this life) and the possibility of separating ourselves from God for the rest of eternity. It is not my opinion that God is sadistic and enjoys to see us suffer.

 

[Dameedna]

Golly gosh, you can quote the bible.

None of those quotes, change the fact that God, according to your doctrine chose to create free will entities, knowing they would choose eternity.

hehe…you really can’t argue around this.

 

[jkiernan56]

Golly gosh, you can quote the bible.

None of those quotes, change the fact that God, according to your doctrine chose to create free will entities, knowing they would choose eternity.

hehe…you really can’t argue around this.

Your right - I totally agree with you. Please do me a favor … will you stand in line before me at the general judgement when you ask God why he did this? LOL

 

[Dameedna]

Your right - I totally agree with you. Please do me a favor … will you stand in line before me at the general judgement when you ask God why he did this? LOL

He didn’t do it. Mankind is very judgmental, and we’ve turned a teaching into something diabolical, that has hurt so many people.

At the end of the day, your ability to believe in an eternal suffering will define who you are, not God.

Everything you believe and everything you do, will define you.

You can’t blame the church for teaching you the wrong thing. You just have to blame yourself for accepting it.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

My boss, consistantly listens to his employees and asks for their advice.A good boss, is never a dictator.

Bad analogy on your part I think

 

[jkiernan56]

He didn’t do it. Mankind is very judgmental, and we’ve turned a teaching into something diabolical, that has hurt so many people.

At the end of the day, your ability to believe in an eternal suffering will define who you are, not God.

Everything you believe and everything you do, will define you.

You can’t blame the church for teaching you the wrong thing. You just have to blame yourself for accepting it.

You have every right to be wrong!!! just kidding … Just because I accept the reality that mankind has a free will and can make wrong choices and thus reap the consequences for their actions, does not make me judgemental. Is it judgemental of me to say that if I jump off a cliff and get hurt, that its God’s fault? There are consequences to rejecting the physical laws of nature and there are consequences when we reject Gods laws as well. You seem to like the idea of a Santa Claus God. Is it your opinion that Hell doesn’t exist because that is not compatible of your idea of what a loving God is? I think the real problem lies in our understanding of love and how God views it. Let me put it to you again … love cannot exist without free will. Free will has negative consequences when used to reject what is good according to God. Whether or not that is an eternal consequence for each person is yet to be seen. Ideally it would be wonderful to live in a universe without pain. But pain can be a good thing if it helps us to stop doing something that is harmful to us. If I put my hand on a stove and it starts to destroy it, pain tells me that something is wrong and that I should take my hand off the stove. I think what you really have a problem with is the idea of how God could allow pain to exist (as a consequence of evil). If God is all knowing, all powerful and all loving, how can God allow evil? I don’t pretend to understand it all, but I am trying to learn what I can.

 

[jkiernan56]

You can’t blame the church for teaching you the wrong thing. You just have to blame yourself for accepting it.

Let me try to put it to you another way. If Hell does not exist, then neither does Heaven and neither does free-will. The inherent reality of having a free-will is the ability to choose what is contrary to what God wants and knows will harm us. Thus because of free-will, evil really does exist. Whoever denies that there is something wrong in the universe has their head in the sand and isn’t accepting reality. I believe this is the case with Christian Scientologists. Denying the truth that pain and evil really do exist and that it is all in our heads is nuts!!! I am not judging Mary Baker Eddy to say that, but just stating a fact. Accepting this truth was probably too painful for her. But denying truth doesn’t change reality. By the way, if a tree crashes in the forest, do you think it makes a sound?

 

[PJM]

He didn’t do it. Mankind is very judgmental, and we’ve turned a teaching into something diabolical, that has hurt so many people.

At the end of the day, your ability to believe in an eternal suffering will define who you are, not God.

Everything you believe and everything you do, will define you.

You can’t blame the church for teaching you the wrong thing. You just have to blame yourself for accepting it.

From your lips to God’s ears…NOT!

Reply"

And that’s not all.

MSN.com home page today is running an article on PE Obama, and what he plans to do to “religion.” It’s scary stuff and “A MUST read.”

Pray brethern, pray,

PJM m.c.

 

[wcknight]

No one knows who is, or is not going to eternal damnation. Some say they believe Hell exists but no one is there.

Regardless of whether we believe it exists or not, will not change the notion or fact that Hell does exists. If it does not exist, someone believing it does, will not make it so. BUT if it does exist, some one not believing it exists, will not make it disappear.

On another topic someone wrote that during an exorcism the demon said demons created Hell not God, God never even thought of it.

Even though you say the problem you have is not with God, from all that you’ve said, your problem is precisely with how you blame God for all the evil or ills of the world.

From your view, God should not have made everyone with free will, then there would be no evil in the world, and then there would be no need for punishment. That may sound just peachy but the down side is that there would be no freedom or freedom to love either.

Even if everyone one agreed with your ideas, the reality that we all face, is that there IS free will and we ARE responsible for our own deeds. Complaining about what we can’t change does not make our situation change. At the end of it all, when you confront God, you may complain all you want about how you think it is His fault for giving you free will, but ultimately you will be held responsible for all that you did or did not do.

And even IF we agreed with you, which we do not, ultimately we will all be responsible for our own misdeeds regardless of whether or not we like or dislike having free will. Trying to say that evil does not exist because God gave folks free will, will not wash.

You may try to slip that one through but every one is responsible for their own mistakes,

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
What keeps you from accepting that God is love?

I have no problem accepting God is Love.

But let’s be clear on this…

You and I will not agree on what is love.

You and I will not agree on what is justice.

Nor will we agree on what is truth.

I don’t have a problem with God. He is not the problem.

You don’t have a problem with God, 'cause you undoubtedly love Him and He undoubtedly loves you, but you do have a problem with the consequences of God being as God actually is.

The Church, and not us, decides what “love” and “justice” and “truth” mean.

The consequences of those actual (true) definitions create a “God” which you can’t accept. In other words, you think the Church is wrong about God.

The question is not why the Church should change to be “right” according to you, but why you can’t change yourself to conform to the truths of God.

That’s what “correctly informing your conscience” means. You are allowed to doubt that you understand the truth as given us by the Church, but you are not allowed to doubt the actual truths of the Church.

Unless you’re not a Catholic, in which case, uh, in the immortal words of Rosanna Rosannadanna: Never mind!

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

He didn’t do it. Mankind is very judgmental, and we’ve turned a teaching into something diabolical, that has hurt so many people.

At the end of the day, your ability to believe in an eternal suffering will define who you are, not God.

Everything you believe and everything you do, will define you.

You can’t blame the church for teaching you the wrong thing. You just have to blame yourself for accepting it.

Síocháin an Tiarna libh i gconaí.

I understand your injuries, and while I don’t agree with where they’ve driven you, I understand why you are where you are.

We’re all praying for grace to more “forcefully” make it’s way to you.

Best life to you.

:shamrock2:

 

[Nino]

very good,thats why hollyweird always from day one produced movies glorifying cons in jail…they were innocent while the big bad cops were the rotten ones…We are mortals so it is difficult to understand the infinite…but it stands to reason …oops sorry clyde…that since we all have a sense of justice and in-justice…then our Creator must also…so …we are allowed to only use Hitler as an example of evil…Stalin and Mao who murdered more must never be used…anyway…HItler is,by your logic ,in the same place now as the 6 million Jews he ordered exterminated in those ovens…mmmm…now does that sound right or not? Notice not one of the major candidates for pres.mentioned that our kitchens have been invaded by slave labor products from the leading dictatorship in the world…China…and that much of these foodstuffs and clothing are un-healthy…plus putting millions of made in America workers and products out of work…to me that is evil…to this 'job’fellow its worth a harmless smirk…well you follow ‘job’and I follow Jesus who declared re: child molestors." lets put a millstone around their necks and toss the evil ones into the nearest stream’…somehow I kinda like that…blunt and effective…next week boys and girls we will discuss the difference between the songs…IN the Ghetto and Patches…I ,like Patches ,chose to fight …the punk in the ghetto chose to be a loser and lost…thats called free will…Nino

 

[jkiernan56]

Síocháin an Tiarna libh i gconaí.

I understand your injuries, and while I don’t agree with where they’ve driven you, I understand why you are where you are.

We’re all praying for grace to more “forcefully” make it’s way to you.

Best life to you.

:shamrock2:

No one is going to hell just because they don’t believe in Hell.
Nor do I for one second believe that only those who believe in Jesus are going to heaven. Even those of us who believe in Jesus here on earth aren’t guaranteed of going to heaven unless we hold on to the grace we have received and finish the running the race. But because we still have free-will, that can still be rejected. But by the grace of God, go I.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

No one is going to hell just because they don’t believe in Hell.

Nor do I for one second believe that only those who believe in Jesus are going to heaven. Even those who believe in Jesus here on earth (us included) aren’t guaranteed of going to heaven unless we finish the race and hold on to the grace we have received. But because we still have free-will, that can still be rejected.

Your absolutely right.

But the odds are worse for getting to heaven if one doesn’t believe in hell, or God qua God, or the Church as what she actually is, etc.

What does it mean when someone purposefully comes to a Catholic forum to illustrate their (very willful) non-Catholic (bordering on anti-Catholic) understandings?

It means they need, and (to be charitable) most probably want, to be informed OUT of their uncomfortable understandings.

And when someone shows me they are simply interested in being an example of intransigence in error, as opposed to my being an example of intransigence in truth, as I’m not opposed to intransigence at all but am vehemently opposed to error, I move on to more productive things to do, as I’m really quite awful at being in the least persuasive that truths are actually truths due to my curmudgeonliness.

:shamrock2: